Discrimination really ? This cannot happen.. [merged]
Oct 30, 2013, 7:50 am
#31
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F class passengers will be the first one to be put on alternate flights in case of irgops. So it's quite "common" as long as cancelled or long-delayed flights have passengers in F class.
Oct 30, 2013, 8:06 am
#32
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That said, I am sure that most of the DYKWIA types that travel in La Première would be more than equal to the task of bowing any AF agent, no matter how imperious or haughty, into booking them on to the exact carrier and flights of their desires in the case of IRROPS!!!
Oct 30, 2013, 10:29 am
#33
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I and many of my family members, have been flying AF a lot in the past, and independently of how much you pay, how loyal you are, it is the kind of service you have to expect at some point. And the worst is when you combine AF with ADP, you get a perfect storm of lack of respect and carelessness!
Racism? Not at all, no worries, they treat good French citizens the same way! A couple days ago one of my colleague went through hell trying to book seats on a flight (she is Elite+ and French). I could hear the conversations (2 call centers, more than 30 minutes) and I was sorry for her to be polite!
In the end, Twitter and Facebook teams are doing an awesome job with CS at AF and KL.
Are there good people in the mix? Yes but unfortunately the lottery for potential lack of respect and carelessness is too easy to win! I won many times! I even got rescued by DL that felt insulted by AF behavior at CDG a few years back ... to a point where DL employees escorted me on the airplane to make sure AF takes me to JFK because they were refusing (one of my craziest air travel story).
I know that they could have done better. But we cannot generalize by saying everything is bad. I imagine that all passengers allowed to enter the Schengen space have been accomodated in CDG hotels or sent home.
And after all, being in a Frequent Flyer forum, I find it pretty normal for "High Contributors" (P, J, W class, ST E+ and ST E passengers) to receive priority handling in case of an IRROP.
And France is a country that tends to criticize such privileges, so it might have been worse elsewhere.
Oct 30, 2013, 10:38 am
#34
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Dreadful. This can be used as an example of how not to write a complaint letter.
And to top it off, not much in the story is all that out of the ordinary - yes, flight cancellations happen, no, airlines do not always have a spare plane to use.
Yes, business class passengers will most likely get priority rebooking, and no, Air France can't really be held responsible for French Immigration providing a visa for some and not for others. The rest is just plain whining.
A one night delay and having to spend the night at the airport is not a "horrible experience", it is an inconvenience, and not fun, but hardly a horrible experience.
And to top it off, not much in the story is all that out of the ordinary - yes, flight cancellations happen, no, airlines do not always have a spare plane to use.
Yes, business class passengers will most likely get priority rebooking, and no, Air France can't really be held responsible for French Immigration providing a visa for some and not for others. The rest is just plain whining.
A one night delay and having to spend the night at the airport is not a "horrible experience", it is an inconvenience, and not fun, but hardly a horrible experience.
Oct 30, 2013, 11:25 am
#35
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S**t happens, it's happened to me in the past on various carriers and no doubt will happen again at some point. It was a pain in the a** for the pax and some people were obviously inconvenienced more than others. Compensation will be paid and the world will still continue to turn (at least for now)
At least in the EU laws have been enacted to recompense passengers, pray tell what they give you in the US and Asia for this event occurring?
At least in the EU laws have been enacted to recompense passengers, pray tell what they give you in the US and Asia for this event occurring?
Oct 30, 2013, 11:31 am
#36
Join Date: Jun 2012
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Agreed, a complaint should state facts and give an expectation of what one expects in reply.
I always find it ridiculous when people claim that airlines in europe cancel flights because of low loads. So the return flight that aircraft would have operated from India back to France was equally empty? The cost of accommodating and compensating all the passengers from both the European and Indian side of the cancellation would be worth it? Crews out of position as stuck down route. All this is worth cancelling one flight? I doubt it.
What really touched a nerve with me regarding this complaint though is that exactly the same thing happened to me - but in India. A few years ago I was booked to fly (what was then Indian Airlines) from Muscat to Delhi then connect via Delhi with CX to HKG. All in J. I had a three hour transit time in Delhi and as a uk national did not require a visa for transit.
Indian Airlines flight gets delayed. I miss my connection in Delhi. The way I was treated was nothing short of abysmal. Indian Airlines refused absolutely ANY assistance (I was on a single ticketed flight). Even in rebooking me they just wouldn't talk to me. There were no Cathay staff left at the airport and in India they have this bureaucratic 'handing over' of transit passengers. Basically a staff member from your incoming airline and outgoing airline have to hand paperwork over to each other. Yet the Cathay staff had gone. Leaving me stuck. So, onto the worst thing - I was refused a transit Visa. And I most certainly did not have the 'luxury' of being able to roam the terminal. I had to remain in the one roomed transit lounge with the only food and drink available from a vending machine. This being despite there bein a transit hotel within the sterile area of the departure lounge. But they refused to let me through point blank. I had to sit in that one roomed transfer lounge for 16 hours with absolutely no food or no drink. I can tell you, I could have murdered for departure hall with the freedom to at least get some food and drink.
It reminds me of a saying - people in glass houses should not throw stones. Yes, Air France could definitely have handled the situation better. But India is the KING of frustrating delays, cancellations and bureaucratic transit and visa requirements.
I always find it ridiculous when people claim that airlines in europe cancel flights because of low loads. So the return flight that aircraft would have operated from India back to France was equally empty? The cost of accommodating and compensating all the passengers from both the European and Indian side of the cancellation would be worth it? Crews out of position as stuck down route. All this is worth cancelling one flight? I doubt it.
What really touched a nerve with me regarding this complaint though is that exactly the same thing happened to me - but in India. A few years ago I was booked to fly (what was then Indian Airlines) from Muscat to Delhi then connect via Delhi with CX to HKG. All in J. I had a three hour transit time in Delhi and as a uk national did not require a visa for transit.
Indian Airlines flight gets delayed. I miss my connection in Delhi. The way I was treated was nothing short of abysmal. Indian Airlines refused absolutely ANY assistance (I was on a single ticketed flight). Even in rebooking me they just wouldn't talk to me. There were no Cathay staff left at the airport and in India they have this bureaucratic 'handing over' of transit passengers. Basically a staff member from your incoming airline and outgoing airline have to hand paperwork over to each other. Yet the Cathay staff had gone. Leaving me stuck. So, onto the worst thing - I was refused a transit Visa. And I most certainly did not have the 'luxury' of being able to roam the terminal. I had to remain in the one roomed transit lounge with the only food and drink available from a vending machine. This being despite there bein a transit hotel within the sterile area of the departure lounge. But they refused to let me through point blank. I had to sit in that one roomed transfer lounge for 16 hours with absolutely no food or no drink. I can tell you, I could have murdered for departure hall with the freedom to at least get some food and drink.
It reminds me of a saying - people in glass houses should not throw stones. Yes, Air France could definitely have handled the situation better. But India is the KING of frustrating delays, cancellations and bureaucratic transit and visa requirements.
Last edited by duckied; Oct 30, 2013 at 11:36 am
Oct 30, 2013, 11:44 am
#37
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Oct 30, 2013, 11:49 am
#38
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Came across this blog which is circulating in the social media. Not that I have an opinion on this, but I thought I should share this ordeal suffered by those 45+ passengers...!
http://jayharishshah.blogspot.nl/201...-in-paris.html
http://jayharishshah.blogspot.nl/201...-in-paris.html
Oct 30, 2013, 1:19 pm
#39
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My 0.02 -
Most airlines are pretty bad at how they handle cancellations. If you think shlt like this doesn't happen in the US, let me give you an example: I remember early this year my sister in law (17 at that time) missing her EWR-DEL flight due to a late arriving connection from YYZ, being told that nothing will be done by UA and she can't really stay in the airport since it was closing. No UA employees were there for cancellation and/or rebooking and after giving up after 3 hours and being verbally pushed out of the airport and being new to NYC, I told her to just cab to a friend's place in Manhattan. She was later booked on the next day night flight by a phone agent.
Back in the day as a student (~2003-2010), I traveled the India-US sector pretty often through Europe (6+ times/year). Trust me, crap like what the OP went through happens. I have been stranded in airports mostly LHR, CDG, SVO, AUH and have often spent 12+ hours just sitting at the boarding gate. No transit visas, compensations or even comp food vouchers were offered. I never knew about my options back then. I have seen a gate agent being partial, even racist. I have seen them yell and curse passengers. And worst, they just avoid coming to the gate area to have to deal with stranded passengers for hours. I am often ok with this in countries (like India) or with Airlines (Aeroflot) where I don't expect customer service but some of the premier airlines of our day and age still pull this crazy cr*p. As a United 1K, I really felt my sister in law was let down by an airline I am so closely connected with and have high expectations often from.
I think a fair set of laws should be there in case of such cancellations. The onus should be on the airline to make sure a basic minimum set of things are done (or atleast tried and documented) for passengers especially in technical, weather or other delays that leave passengers helpless. Governments should mandate this. They all paid for their tickets and deserve this much. I shouldn't have to take out my *G card or head to the nearest lounge or create a scene just to get some attention and false apologies. Sure they can go above and beyond for business class folks or frequent flyers, but I feel like more and more, you have to be in biz class or be a FF just so get the basic attention in case of such events like being even tried to be rebooked within 1-2 hours of a flight. The common man is always ignored!
Most airlines are pretty bad at how they handle cancellations. If you think shlt like this doesn't happen in the US, let me give you an example: I remember early this year my sister in law (17 at that time) missing her EWR-DEL flight due to a late arriving connection from YYZ, being told that nothing will be done by UA and she can't really stay in the airport since it was closing. No UA employees were there for cancellation and/or rebooking and after giving up after 3 hours and being verbally pushed out of the airport and being new to NYC, I told her to just cab to a friend's place in Manhattan. She was later booked on the next day night flight by a phone agent.
Back in the day as a student (~2003-2010), I traveled the India-US sector pretty often through Europe (6+ times/year). Trust me, crap like what the OP went through happens. I have been stranded in airports mostly LHR, CDG, SVO, AUH and have often spent 12+ hours just sitting at the boarding gate. No transit visas, compensations or even comp food vouchers were offered. I never knew about my options back then. I have seen a gate agent being partial, even racist. I have seen them yell and curse passengers. And worst, they just avoid coming to the gate area to have to deal with stranded passengers for hours. I am often ok with this in countries (like India) or with Airlines (Aeroflot) where I don't expect customer service but some of the premier airlines of our day and age still pull this crazy cr*p. As a United 1K, I really felt my sister in law was let down by an airline I am so closely connected with and have high expectations often from.
I think a fair set of laws should be there in case of such cancellations. The onus should be on the airline to make sure a basic minimum set of things are done (or atleast tried and documented) for passengers especially in technical, weather or other delays that leave passengers helpless. Governments should mandate this. They all paid for their tickets and deserve this much. I shouldn't have to take out my *G card or head to the nearest lounge or create a scene just to get some attention and false apologies. Sure they can go above and beyond for business class folks or frequent flyers, but I feel like more and more, you have to be in biz class or be a FF just so get the basic attention in case of such events like being even tried to be rebooked within 1-2 hours of a flight. The common man is always ignored!
Last edited by sj22; Oct 30, 2013 at 1:25 pm
Oct 30, 2013, 1:53 pm
#40
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I think a fair set of laws should be there in case of such cancellations. The onus should be on the airline to make sure a basic minimum set of things are done (or atleast tried and documented) for passengers especially in technical, weather or other delays that leave passengers helpless. Governments should mandate this. They all paid for their tickets and deserve this much. I shouldn't have to take out my *G card or head to the nearest lounge or create a scene just to get some attention and false apologies. Sure they can go above and beyond for business class folks or frequent flyers, but I feel like more and more, you have to be in biz class or be a FF just so get the basic attention in case of such events like being even tried to be rebooked within 1-2 hours of a flight. The common man is always ignored!
Ultimately, all we have here is a blogger's series of accusations about 'bad attitude' by AF staff which is of course entirely possible but certainly not proven since we only have his word for it so far, and frankly, he is not doing himself a service by using a rather dramatic and inflammatory style in his complained. As far as the facts are concerned, we have no evidence at all that AF did not provide the passengers with the best possible options available at the time and did so in an order of priority that was consistent with the airline's (largely industry standard) practices. All we have are unsubstantiated accusations by the blogger that there were alternatives, and some vague claims by facebook posters who do not have account to actual availability but simply suggested that there were other flights that went from CDG to BOM via various places on the day (with or without spare seats, we will probably never know...)
Oct 30, 2013, 2:29 pm
#41
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I think it is ideal for passengers connecting in the Schengen area from North America to Asia requiring transit visas to enter the Schengen area to avoid traveling through Schengen Airports as it can be horrendous in case of IRROPS. The EK/EY flights are cheaper and if you are looking for convenience I would look at the non-stop flights. AF probably did everything by the book, but when you see everyone having the same color of passport stranded, it does lead to resentment. I would be furious if this happened to me.
Last edited by tomcat007; Oct 30, 2013 at 2:35 pm
Oct 30, 2013, 3:04 pm
#42
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I think it is ideal for passengers connecting in the Schengen area from North America to Asia requiring transit visas to enter the Schengen area to avoid traveling through Schengen Airports as it can be horrendous in case of IRROPS. The EK/EY flights are cheaper and if you are looking for convenience I would look at the non-stop flights. AF probably did everything by the book, but when you see everyone having the same color of passport stranded, it does lead to resentment. I would be furious if this happened to me.
Sure, by transiting in DXB, there might have been more choices a day to fly - but not guaranteed. And the other smaller gulf airlines might just have a daily flight too.
Yes, flying directly is ALWAYS the way to go. If you don't look on your money. That's why flying direct is usually more expensive, as it's just more convenient.
Now, the OP should be happy he could still get food, drinks, a half-decent place to overnight. If he had been a European national getting stuck in Delhi, it would have been nothing of it all (see the poster above who wrote about his stuck-in-India report) - and that was in Business class, not on a super-cheap Economy fare..
In my eyes, Air France might have been a bit better organised, and the food vouchers might need some improvement, but everything else is just nonsense rant from an indian guy having apparently too much time..
Oct 30, 2013, 5:26 pm
#43
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,885
AFAIK, there are no airside hotel or sleeping facilities at LHR. UKBA will perhaps issue transit visas easier in irrops situations than the French authorities but the airport itself does not offer sleeping facilities airside. Airside hotel facilities are very unusual in Europe (AMS being the exception) or the US. They are more common in large Asian airports, many of which, unlike their European or North American counterparts, operate on a 24 hr basis.The letter however is a bit OTT , I don't doubt the passengers had the right to be angry and all the documents he has backs up what went on. There is no doubt Air France should compensate all involved. Air France have improved from when I got to the point that I would refuse to fly them after a few very bad experiences and rudeness from their staff at CDG. They at one stage did seem to have an attitude second to none.
My last 4 flights with them were very good and I did notice a lot of improvement but they need to address this issue where French BP will not issue visas in exceptional circumstances. If as mentioned they intend to have their own facilities airside to cope then that would most certainly be a step in the right direction.
Oct 30, 2013, 8:52 pm
#44
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fTHEY COULD HAVE EASILY USED EK,QR,EY which does not need the visa and seat can be found as they EK using A380 and i am definate that other carriers are not overbooked..
Where there is a will there is a way.....
Where there is a will there is a way.....
Cancelled flights are always a terribly unpleasant experience; sadly not an entirely unusual one. The rest is, if I may say, a lot of dramatisation and literary style but let us focus on some of the facts:
- A flight from CDG to BOM clearly had a tech issue. It was first delayed it seems, as they hoped to fix it, and then cancelled when they realised that they could not.
- One of the passenger's complaints is that they did not receive information. The trouble in this case is that working for AF does not make you clairvoyant and the ground staff does not mean you have a clue. In practice, what happens is as follows: pilot realises something is wrong with the plane, does or does not have an intuition what the issue is (but at best an intuition just like your car suddenly breaking down, you may think you know what's wrong but you want the car repair people to figure out for sure - or I could have used ailments and doctors as another example), technicians are called, investigate, either find what was wrong or continue searching, figure what to try/fix and then hope it will be enough before trying again because even if you have definitely determined "an" issue, you always need to make sure there was not another. This is an iterative and uncertain process, and it is worse to give 'wrong' information (think about all the "I was lied to" threads on FT) to no information at all, so why pax always want to know and ground staff always need to fence off which of course comes across as arrogant.
- AF had to rebook a full load of passengers from a cancelled flight from CDG to BOM, and not everyone got rebooked, and the business pax got rebooked in priority. Well yes, exactly, all airlines have their priorities and they all tend to be the same: passengers who paid for premium tickets (F when there is one, J, W when there is one, passengers with high level status on the airline's FFP or a partner's FFP). I personally do not see anything wrong with that. There are other considerations such as age and family. The complaining pax refers to the many senior citizens but not to any families with infants/small children, I would venture to guess that this was because they were also dealt with in priority because frankly, I have never seen a flight to/from India which does not have a lot of infants/small kids, and considering the style of the letter, I am sure the passenger would have been outraged that families with babies were not dealt with in priority if they had been there with the rest of the passengers. So premium, high status, families with infants/small children in priority. Culturally, senior citizens are more prioritised in some societies than in others. I am afraid that in Europe you are not considered 'old' enough when you are 60 or 70 to justify special treatment while in India, it would indeed entitle you to immense respect and priority in many situations.
- The very fact that the OP refers to 45 passengers is in itself telling. It means that vast majority WERE indeed reaccommodated more effectively. He was unlucky enough to remain part of the 'last' group.
- Also what were the solutions available? The passenger mentions Schengen but seems to not fully grasp the implication of Schengen from rerouting purposes. Not that many airlines fly to BOM. The most natural rerouting option that AF would think of would be something like CDG-AMS-BOM but hey, if a passenger does hold a valid Schengen visa this is NOT an option because the passenger needs to enter Schengen first to be routed in such a way. And of course, the same goes of the vast majority of itineraries that would have existed: try to reroute people via FRA, FCO, etc and it simply won't work. Of course, you could reroute people 'indirectly', ie CDG-LHR-AMS-BOM but the waste of time means many connections would not work, and of course complex itineraries are all the more likely to go wrong and imagine the complaints then. As for the most obvious solution (fly people CDG-LHR-BOM, UK flights to India are, sadly, chronically overbooked and it is quite likely there was simply no seat available.
- Then (in the context of the hotel night), the passenger complains about the fact that only 6-7 people out of 40 received a Schengen visa and says that many of them had received Schengen visas in the past and several had just received US visas. I completely understand the sense of unfairness, but if he has applied for and received Schengen visas in the past, he will then be fully aware of the cumbersome process involved, tons of documents required, investigation time factored in etc. Schengen visas are possibly the 'strictest' visas in the world and as the collaboration between over 20 countries has effectively resulted in the 'toughest' approach compromise, French immigration services simply would not have the license to give blanket visas to people just because they were stranded and without a flight. Terrible but predictable. My guess is that the easiest people to sort out would had just left Schengen because even if, for the sake of argument, their visa had expired at the end of their stay the office would know they had just 'passed' and a short transit visa could probably be reissued easily. However someone who had received a Schengen visa 2, 3, 5 years ago? I don't think so. That is sadly one of the issues with transit and a reason why I myself have sometimes avoided transiting through certain places like Saudi Arabia which offered cheap and tempting J itineraries: I have Israeli stamps on my passport and knew that if there was a problem such as the one experienced by the OP, I may well be unable to just leave the airport and get a hotel room! And needless to say that if the OP had flown, say, CDG-JFK-BOM instead (I don't know if such an itinerary even exists) andthe problem had occurred at JFK, he would have faced the exact same problem as in France.
- I think the concept of a 'special flight' might be a misunderstanding. AF would not typically organise a special flight for 40 passengers as those could principally be accommodated on existing flights. The passenger himself refers to a 'new flight' earlier and I think this was probably meant as new as opposed to their original flight (ie as opposed to the delayed one).
- Multiple references to passengers trying to sort out priority, argue/negotiate/tell AF what to do etc. Essentially, again, this is probably a bit of a cultural thing as I know of some societies whereby it is not unusual for an ad hoc group to find a natural leader who will take on discussions with a stakeholder/partner/competitor to try and find an acceptable solution. This is simply not the case in the western world broadly speaking (Europe, North America, Oceania, etc) whereby both culturally and legally the airline would need to consider all individuals and apply regulatory and/or internal processes of prioritisation and would essentially resent anyone trying to meddle. Again, I'm not saying this is a good or bad thing, just that this is probably what happened and why.
- Again, the OP in his final 'demonstration' refers to the fact that there were at most 45 stranded pax with him as reason to think AF cancelled the flight on purpose because of under-utilisation. I think this is simply an absurd claim. Again, 45 'remaining' stranded passengers means that well over 100 were effectively reaccommodated. This will cost AF a ton of money in terms of rebooked passengers, staff utilisation, and due compensation. The same will have happened for the return route. Frankly, I am 100% certain that if AF cancelled the flight it is because they simply had no way whatsoever of flying it or they would have, it would have been vastly cheaper for them to do so.
Now I'm not in any way denying the unpleasantness of the passenger's experience. I hope he will get ample compensation for what is in effect a nightmare journey. I have long said AF should do better in case of IRROPS and I'm sure they would have... at the margins. But in this particular case, I very much doubt that they could have done MUCH more.
PS: I do find the passenger's semi-veiled accusations of racism/discrimination based on the experience he described preposterous and some of the ways that he, himself, refers to some of the AF staff extremely offensive and bordering on despicable. I do make allowances for how angry he was when he wrote, but to be honest, some of them are way past my 'rudeness allowance'.
- A flight from CDG to BOM clearly had a tech issue. It was first delayed it seems, as they hoped to fix it, and then cancelled when they realised that they could not.
- One of the passenger's complaints is that they did not receive information. The trouble in this case is that working for AF does not make you clairvoyant and the ground staff does not mean you have a clue. In practice, what happens is as follows: pilot realises something is wrong with the plane, does or does not have an intuition what the issue is (but at best an intuition just like your car suddenly breaking down, you may think you know what's wrong but you want the car repair people to figure out for sure - or I could have used ailments and doctors as another example), technicians are called, investigate, either find what was wrong or continue searching, figure what to try/fix and then hope it will be enough before trying again because even if you have definitely determined "an" issue, you always need to make sure there was not another. This is an iterative and uncertain process, and it is worse to give 'wrong' information (think about all the "I was lied to" threads on FT) to no information at all, so why pax always want to know and ground staff always need to fence off which of course comes across as arrogant.
- AF had to rebook a full load of passengers from a cancelled flight from CDG to BOM, and not everyone got rebooked, and the business pax got rebooked in priority. Well yes, exactly, all airlines have their priorities and they all tend to be the same: passengers who paid for premium tickets (F when there is one, J, W when there is one, passengers with high level status on the airline's FFP or a partner's FFP). I personally do not see anything wrong with that. There are other considerations such as age and family. The complaining pax refers to the many senior citizens but not to any families with infants/small children, I would venture to guess that this was because they were also dealt with in priority because frankly, I have never seen a flight to/from India which does not have a lot of infants/small kids, and considering the style of the letter, I am sure the passenger would have been outraged that families with babies were not dealt with in priority if they had been there with the rest of the passengers. So premium, high status, families with infants/small children in priority. Culturally, senior citizens are more prioritised in some societies than in others. I am afraid that in Europe you are not considered 'old' enough when you are 60 or 70 to justify special treatment while in India, it would indeed entitle you to immense respect and priority in many situations.
- The very fact that the OP refers to 45 passengers is in itself telling. It means that vast majority WERE indeed reaccommodated more effectively. He was unlucky enough to remain part of the 'last' group.
- Also what were the solutions available? The passenger mentions Schengen but seems to not fully grasp the implication of Schengen from rerouting purposes. Not that many airlines fly to BOM. The most natural rerouting option that AF would think of would be something like CDG-AMS-BOM but hey, if a passenger does hold a valid Schengen visa this is NOT an option because the passenger needs to enter Schengen first to be routed in such a way. And of course, the same goes of the vast majority of itineraries that would have existed: try to reroute people via FRA, FCO, etc and it simply won't work. Of course, you could reroute people 'indirectly', ie CDG-LHR-AMS-BOM but the waste of time means many connections would not work, and of course complex itineraries are all the more likely to go wrong and imagine the complaints then. As for the most obvious solution (fly people CDG-LHR-BOM, UK flights to India are, sadly, chronically overbooked and it is quite likely there was simply no seat available.
- Then (in the context of the hotel night), the passenger complains about the fact that only 6-7 people out of 40 received a Schengen visa and says that many of them had received Schengen visas in the past and several had just received US visas. I completely understand the sense of unfairness, but if he has applied for and received Schengen visas in the past, he will then be fully aware of the cumbersome process involved, tons of documents required, investigation time factored in etc. Schengen visas are possibly the 'strictest' visas in the world and as the collaboration between over 20 countries has effectively resulted in the 'toughest' approach compromise, French immigration services simply would not have the license to give blanket visas to people just because they were stranded and without a flight. Terrible but predictable. My guess is that the easiest people to sort out would had just left Schengen because even if, for the sake of argument, their visa had expired at the end of their stay the office would know they had just 'passed' and a short transit visa could probably be reissued easily. However someone who had received a Schengen visa 2, 3, 5 years ago? I don't think so. That is sadly one of the issues with transit and a reason why I myself have sometimes avoided transiting through certain places like Saudi Arabia which offered cheap and tempting J itineraries: I have Israeli stamps on my passport and knew that if there was a problem such as the one experienced by the OP, I may well be unable to just leave the airport and get a hotel room! And needless to say that if the OP had flown, say, CDG-JFK-BOM instead (I don't know if such an itinerary even exists) andthe problem had occurred at JFK, he would have faced the exact same problem as in France.
- I think the concept of a 'special flight' might be a misunderstanding. AF would not typically organise a special flight for 40 passengers as those could principally be accommodated on existing flights. The passenger himself refers to a 'new flight' earlier and I think this was probably meant as new as opposed to their original flight (ie as opposed to the delayed one).
- Multiple references to passengers trying to sort out priority, argue/negotiate/tell AF what to do etc. Essentially, again, this is probably a bit of a cultural thing as I know of some societies whereby it is not unusual for an ad hoc group to find a natural leader who will take on discussions with a stakeholder/partner/competitor to try and find an acceptable solution. This is simply not the case in the western world broadly speaking (Europe, North America, Oceania, etc) whereby both culturally and legally the airline would need to consider all individuals and apply regulatory and/or internal processes of prioritisation and would essentially resent anyone trying to meddle. Again, I'm not saying this is a good or bad thing, just that this is probably what happened and why.
- Again, the OP in his final 'demonstration' refers to the fact that there were at most 45 stranded pax with him as reason to think AF cancelled the flight on purpose because of under-utilisation. I think this is simply an absurd claim. Again, 45 'remaining' stranded passengers means that well over 100 were effectively reaccommodated. This will cost AF a ton of money in terms of rebooked passengers, staff utilisation, and due compensation. The same will have happened for the return route. Frankly, I am 100% certain that if AF cancelled the flight it is because they simply had no way whatsoever of flying it or they would have, it would have been vastly cheaper for them to do so.
Now I'm not in any way denying the unpleasantness of the passenger's experience. I hope he will get ample compensation for what is in effect a nightmare journey. I have long said AF should do better in case of IRROPS and I'm sure they would have... at the margins. But in this particular case, I very much doubt that they could have done MUCH more.
PS: I do find the passenger's semi-veiled accusations of racism/discrimination based on the experience he described preposterous and some of the ways that he, himself, refers to some of the AF staff extremely offensive and bordering on despicable. I do make allowances for how angry he was when he wrote, but to be honest, some of them are way past my 'rudeness allowance'.
Oct 31, 2013, 3:01 am
#45
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The UK BP issue exceptional 24 hour visas for situations like this upon request from the carrier concerned. In France they are known for the lack of action in these situations.
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My last 4 flights with them were very good and I did notice a lot of improvement but they need to address this issue where French BP will not issue visas in exceptional circumstances.
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My last 4 flights with them were very good and I did notice a lot of improvement but they need to address this issue where French BP will not issue visas in exceptional circumstances.