irishguy28

No, it appears that you were right - orbitmic highlighted other passages that I apparently skipped over.

The lounges at CDG are pretty poor. Plus, they are not open all night, nor would they remain open all night for such special cases. Directing the affected pax to the overnight resting area to me seems to be the best thing to do, provided that enough refreshements are provided, as touched on by your second point

I think that point back fired! That would be an excellent choice in my book, and I am sure many foreigners would agree. It would be far more likely, though, that if only two options were available, at least one, if not both, would be vegetarian.

None of these were direct (I'm assuming), and there may not have been available seats. Remember that AF apparently did re-route some passengers (the business-class ones, at the very least!) and whether or not there really were 10 valid options from CDG (I'd like to see the list, I would have assumed that most Indian-bound flights from EU would all leave at around the same time, so having missed today's flight from Paris most likely the next flight via anywhere else (except via LHR) would end up getting them there no earlier than waiting for the next AF flight at the same time tomorrow.

Just checked all flights to BOM from Europe (excluding UK):
FRA, one a day, departs 2h30 after the CDG flight - so could not be caught when the AF flight is first delayed, and then only later cancelled
MUC: one a day, departs 35m after the AF flight
AMS: one a day, already departed before the AF flight
ZRH: one a day, already departed before the AF flight
BRU: one a day, already departed before the AF flight

The "one a day" above doesn't mean that they operate every day - they don't - but even assuming all flights were operating on the day in question, none of these flights could have been caught by these delayed AF passengers - they were all departed before the flight was cancelled.

The only non-UK option departing from Europe appears to be the TK flight from IST that departs at 19:35. That seems as unlikely to be offered, though, as the possible routings via LHR (only BA and AI have flights that could potentially have been caught by delayed AF passengers, departing at 21:05 and 21:35 - but the UK is technically off-bounds for most Indian nationals)

I haven't checked flights for any other Indian destinations, but I'm sure that it may be a similar story - with at most one flight a day from Europe, by the time the AF flight has been definitively cancelled, the options from Europe are looking pretty slim. So I would put a big fat question mark over the "10 possible routings" (of course, there is an almost infinite number of "possible" routings - route them back via the States for instance! - but there seems to be almost no viable options). Routing via other points outside Europe to me seems unlikely, and again I would suspect that such routings may not actually get the passengers home much faster than waiting til tomorrow. They may have disliked being couped up in an airside part of an airport, but better that than be cooped up in a succession of economy cabins arriving and departing at ungodly hours throughout the night!

NickB

Not available overnight, though: only from 6.00am to 10pm.
But I did learn something nonetheless as I was unaware of this, so thanks. ^
Apparently, they opened these 2 years ago.

currentjer

Well, I was thinking more in line with the EK or EY flights. Or even AF/KE on certain days. In fact, if you could connect to some cities in Asia using the 11pm>AF flights, there are aplenty connections to BOM. From SIN, there's SQ and 9W. From HKG, there's CX. I could go on and on.

Some creative re-routings would have minimized the impact of the cancellations, and I fear this might be a two-way street. Always have a plan and present it to the airline staff, they'd be more willing to work with you.

irishguy28

I have a hard time imagining Air France booking even a La Première passenger onto Emirates. Dubai would be a good connection point - there are 13 flights each and every day to BOM on a variety of carriers (Indigo, SpiceJet and Air India as well as on Emirates - perhaps if Indigo was an associate Skyteam member as has been talked about this would make such a routing more likely) - but DXB is effectively ruled out by the fact that Air France's sole daily flight to Dubai has already departed by the time this BOM flight was cancelled. If you're going to have to wait til the next day to leave CDG, you may as well therefore just leave on the next day's AF direct flight to BOM and forget about DXB altogether.

DXB - not an option (without EK's help, all the way).

Let's look at Abu Dhabi, where Air France has a deepening relationship with Etihad.

This, however, wouldn't seem to help much either. There is a daily evening departure to AUH leaving at 21:15 (I think this is the Air France-operated wetlease, but it's nominally an Etihad flight) which gets into AUH at 0655 the next morning. At AUH, these pax would then face a wait of 8 hours until the next available flight from AUH to BOM - on EY at 15:35 local. Thie pax then arrive at BOM at 20:30, meaning that they get to BOM only about 3 hours earlier than if they had waited overnight at CDG for the next day's AF flight. Routing via AUH doesn't seem like much of a gain.

I'll just do two more, the SIN and HKG options (which, again, I feel are unlikely anyway). As per the map, you are going hours out of your way, and this requires further hours of backtracking.

If there was space on AF's next flight to SIN, departing at 2320, they would get to SIN at 18:55 the next day. It's unlikely they could take the 19:05 or 19:55 departures from SIN, and it would still be touch and go to get the last one of that day on Jet at 20:05 - which would get them to BOM at 23:10, a mere 45 minutes ahead of the next-day AF flight. In fact, it's likely that the connection could be missed, meaning that routing through SIN further delays pax. Clearly, SIN is not the way to go.

As for HKG, Cathay only run an afternoon flight from CDG three days a week - and any rebooking would obviously be on the 2320 AF flight anyway, getting to HKG at 1800 the next day. The next flight from HKG is on Jet, leaving at 1955, and not arriving in BOM until 00:20 on the following day - 25 minutes later than the next-day AF flight. Again, HKG is not the way to go.


It's a common misconception that there are always multiple valid/viable options for less-frequently served longhaul destinations if the airline would only just rebook on ANY carrier - and this clearly is a case where, when routing via the UK (or on EK!!) is not an option, waiting for the next day's flight is clearly the best option.




CDG-BOM: 4351 miles
CDG-DXB-BOM: 4457 miles
CDG-AUH-BOM: 4493 miles
CDG-HKG-BOM: 8628 miles (A 98% increase in journey distance)
CDG-SIN-BOM: 9102 miles (A 109% increase in journey distance, i.e. more than double)

The routing via Singapore is even longer than the one via ICN - but only just - CDG-ICN-BOM comes in at 9012 miles***. However, with a flight from ICN to BOM only 3 days a week, this seems unlikely to be of much use. And routing via ICN would still get you to BOM later than waiting for the next-day AF flight, too, assuming that the ICN-BOM flight was running on the required day, which it may not have been!

All timetable data sourced from Google.
All distances sourced from Great Circle Mapper

***I know it doesn't look from a map that this would be the case - ICN doesn't even appear on the map shown, meaning that it logically seems like it should be longer than any illustrated path - but you must remember than when the globe is projected onto a flat 2d surface, it is of necessity distorted in some way, with distances further from the equator greatly exaggerated on the flat map, while distances closer to the equator are correspondingly "shrunk". On flat maps, Russia and Africa look to be of comparable size, but the reality is that Africa is almost twice as large (30m square km vs 17 m sq km). Two lines of equal length drawn on that map at different latitudes would, on the actual globe, have very different real lengths (the one further north being shorter than the one further south).

currentjer

I have been re-routed OAL many times in irrops situations, esp when I'm traveling with DL or on DL stock. OP had a 006 (DL) ticket. I have seen DL reaccom on EK on multiple times. AF should be willing, if passenger provided routing. He could also have called DL when he was having problems with AF.

As to your point about the connection in SIN, the MCT in SIN is 1 hour, so that's not an issue. In fact, I've done SQ-KL in that amount of time when I was irroped. Instead of my original LAX-SYD-DPS, I had LAX-BNE-SIN-DPS.

Also, distance doesn't matter as long as the new flights get you to your destination with minimal delays or out of the airport which you are not willing/unable to stay. On another occasion, I was ticketed DUB-CDG-AMS-ATL, but my DUB-CDG flight was delayed. I was re-routed DUB-CDG-SCL-ATL. This was with AF's help. YES, SCL! I refused to overnight to Paris, and I presented the flight option to the AF agents with a smile. No anger, just lots of compliments. They made it happen in 3 minutes. It's how you negotiate, not really what you negotiate.

I never believe in the airline not being able to help re-route you as long as you qualify (weather delays not inclusive). It's about being creative, polite, persistent, and resourceful.

orbitmic

Well yes, but... as irishguy28 shows, the Asian options that you mention would simply not minimise delays significantly! Via HKG, it would take longer, and via SIN, even with the minimal one hour transit the gain would be marginal. What is more, SIN airport's website itself recommends: "If you are connecting between terminals, it is advisable to plan your connecting flights more than an hour apart." and this would indeed be a T1-T2 transfer. Imagine the end of the blog post had the passenger missed his connection and been stranded for yet an additional night in SIN!

As for alternative routings/airlines, it makes sense that you, as a DL PM were given more flexibility than a non-status passenger. You also do not mention if you were flying Y or J which would also make a difference. Also, if the passenger was originating in the EU, he would be covered by EC261/2004 which most of us read as meaning that the passenger is entitled to the routing that minimises the delay REGARDLESS of which airline operates this new flight. However, (1) airlines have long resisted rerouting passengers on other airlines and , (2) my understanding is that the passenger is NOT covered by EC261/2004 because case law seems to suggest that the regulation application is concerned with the point of origin and the final destination of the itinerary as a whole rather than individual segments (which is typically much better for passengers by the way) - so in this case the USA and India which would mean that the regulation would not apply and I am not aware that US regulations are far less protective in case of IRROPS and certainly do not impose rerouting on alternative carriers in such cases.

There are things I agree AF should have done better - for instance that a voucher with a standard value would be better than a voucher allowing for specific food (although do we expect AF to reprint the vouchers every time restaurants change their prices? Also does it mean pax might be able to buy a full meal in a give terminal but only a sandwich in another, etc?), be more 'humane' about a passenger facing a terrible personal tragedy (but again, we only have one account here and not from that particular passenger so I would take this with a pinch of salt) but for the rest, again, I fear there is relatively little else here that could have been done. As mentioned by others, the vast majority of CDG is closed overnight and passengers are not allowed to stay in those areas so where they were sent is essentially the one place where they could be sent for an overnight stay without a visa, and I don't think that the chosen rerouting could have been improved all that vastly especially when again, any connection via a Schengen airport would have been illegal as passengers would have first had to pass border control (just like an international passenger without a US visa stranded in NYC could not be rerouted on an itinerary that would imply him flying JFK-LAX first) regardless of timings.

irishguy28

It also undoubtedly helps to have status with a partner airline (Delta) and when presumably some of those flights you are rebooked onto are operated by that airline, or when all are DL/AF/KL flights!

In the present example, however, there is no DL/AF/KL option that gets the pax to their destination any faster than merely waiting for the next day's flight. Whether or not AF checked to see if an all-EK or an EK and AI/Indigo/Spicejet routing via Dubai was available, we can't actually say. But I suspect that even if you had been there as negotiator for the 40-odd pax in question, you would probably also have drawn a blank in getting the pax rebooked on to Emirates.

(Delta and Emirates were once partners, allowing mileage earning on (at least some of) each other's flights. While that relationship ended some years ago, it is impossible to envisage the relationship between DL and EK being as hostile and antagonistic as that between AF and EK. Whether or not DL is, was, or would be happy to rebook on EK, the same cannot be said about Air France).

And there just wasn't any other compelling solution to their problem - I've not seen this supposed list of 10 connections available from CDG but I think it comes down to via DXB without any Skyteam involvement, or connecting to TK at IST. Perhaps polite and persistent requests would have got some on to that routing - and it is compelling, as it would have only resulted in a 5 hour delay in reaching BOM (though the delay in cancelling the flight may have meant reaching IST on time was not possible either).

The alternates all involve additional hassle and stress for elderly/inexperienced travellers, who in many cases either face interminable waits in 2 airports (rather than just the one interminable wait in one airport), and/or run the gauntlet of changing planes on tight schedules in unfamiliar airports, switching between airlines who may have no real coordination or cooperation and may be located in distant parts of the same terminal, or worse, in other terminals - with further misery and inconvenience if they fail to negotiate such challenges and miss one of their flights. TO be honest, with no real itinerary that saves them appreciable amounts of time (except perhaps via IST), the best thing was to allow them to rest/relax (even if they didn't feel that it was restful/relaxing) in CDG and take a simple direct flight from there.

(I can imagine, in a parallel universe, a parallel blog in which the complaint is that the group were rerouted via Singapore on a connection that only allowed an hour, and which would get them to Bombay with a delay of 23h 15m, and the Air France personnel waved off their worries that the connection was too tight and wouldn't listen to the requests to simply wait for the next day's Air France flight; they travelled, reluctantly, missed their onward flight at SIN; the airline in SIN couldn't even find, let alone do anything, with their rebooked ticket, and sent them on to the Air France ticket desk; the Air France ticket desk was unmanned and wouldn't be until 12 hours hence; they were stranded with no food, water, money, or assistance until the Air FRance rep showed up; the Air FRance rep couldn't find their ticket and couldn't rebook them; when they finally got to Bombay 3 days after arriving in Paris, their luggage was lost and is still missing 3 weeks later...blah blah blah blah...)

thesatishk

Looks like the author and fellow passengers had a horrible experience on AF.

The entire letter is in the blog post. I was shocked reading this, have other people experienced similar attitude flying AF?

http://jayharishshah.blogspot.com/20...-in-paris.html

___________________

milefeeds

ScottC

Dreadful. This can be used as an example of how now to write a complaint letter.

And to top it off, not much in the story is all that out of the ordinary - yes, flight cancellations happen, no, airlines do not always have a spare plane to use.

Yes, business class passengers will most likely get priority rebooking, and no, Air France can't really be held responsible for French Immigration providing a visa for some and not for others. The rest is just pain whining.

A one night delay and having to spend the night at the airport is not a "horrible experience", it is an inconvenience, and not fun, but hardly a horrible experience.

stablemate77

i did not read the report....but all i see in air france and klm is a vary klass airline klm is the crown....new planes good service easy to get to place a person want to go....a380 is a nice transport direct from lax cdg has made it more afordable....the bar is always full of soda and desserts....pleasent ride....first class in economy....smile}

obscure2k

Fascinating! I do believe that the proper venue for this Thread is the AF Forum.
Please follow there. It was a very well written Trip Report/nightmare.
Obscure2k
TravelBuzz Moderator

pferrandi

I and many of my family members, have been flying AF a lot in the past, and independently of how much you pay, how loyal you are, it is the kind of service you have to expect at some point. And the worst is when you combine AF with ADP, you get a perfect storm of lack of respect and carelessness!

Racism? Not at all, no worries, they treat good French citizens the same way! A couple days ago one of my colleague went through hell trying to book seats on a flight (she is Elite+ and French). I could hear the conversations (2 call centers, more than 30 minutes) and I was sorry for her to be polite!

Are there good people in the mix? Yes but unfortunately the lottery for potential lack of respect and carelessness is too easy to win! I won many times! I even got rescued by DL that felt insulted by AF behavior at CDG a few years back ... to a point where DL employees escorted me on the airplane to make sure AF takes me to JFK because they were refusing (one of my craziest air travel story).

Have they done all they could for those pax without breaking the bank? No they did not. Not even close! They just do not give a ....! It is not in the AF culture to go the extra-mile for anything. Remember, in addition to being AF, France has a tendency to level things by the bottom (I did not invent that one ... just check how the country is doing ... it is sad for what was once one of the greatest power!)

I worked for airlines, I fly up to 200 times a year and not always as elite. Even though AF is not the only one I have seen screw up, there are many out there that are trying their best based on circumstances. In Chicago they have been deploying beds in the terminal when pax got stranded, not for 40 pax, for hundreds that could not find hotels! (And Chicago is probably the worst airport in the US).

So anyway ... I avoid them as much as I can and it does not matter how shinny their airplanes are, I prefer an good old DL 767 with a better chance for consistency in service!

deepism

Just came across a piece on pathetic customer service on Air France. Flight cancellation is a norm, but what AF did to these 45 people was pathetic. Think, will never fly on this airline in future.
Here is an excerpt, the full letter can be read by following this link:
http://jayharishshah.blogspot.sg/201...-in-paris.html

PS: I am just posting a link which has gone viral in India and which, I think, deserve some awareness. Nothing to do with the author or 45 odd pax on this flight.

To,
Mr ALEXANDRE DE JUNIAC
Chairman & Chief Executive Officer,
Air France-KLM

Dear Alexandre,

Can I call you Alexandre? I hope you don’t mind if I call you by your first name, I understand only your close friends and family members would lovingly call you Alexandre. I’m sure by the time we’re through this entire incident; you’d feel like we’ve known each other for years. As was the flight delay time, on one of your aircrafts I had the misfortune of flying.

You know Alexandre, I seldom read and the only thing I've ever lamented online is the proliferation of religious ideologies. I don't believe in throwing brickbats on any passing subject but I do believe in the fact that writing needs a sense of purpose, which I've rarely come across until now. So you should feel special Alexandre, very special.

The thing is I’ve started dreaming about Air France, Alexandre. I can’t seem to get over. It’s like we’ve been flirting for so long, I can’t take it anymore. Everyday I wake up and I check my inbox to see if I’ve received an e-mail from one of your Customer Relations Executive, I frantically search my mailbox to see if there’s any post from Air France regarding the incident that’s probably going to have lifelong implications on the goodwill of your Company. I can’t take it anymore Alexandre, I can’t.

Please allow me to provide specific details in a timeline format, so that you can either pursue your professional dispensation and seek to resolve these difficulties — or more likely (I suspect) you’ll probably bury yourself in the buckskin leather chair you have and pass this nonchalant piece of information to your interns...

Goldorak

post deleted : was asking for the different threads to be merged - now 2 are merged

FranckM

Poor story but I don't see any kind of discrimination here by the AF crew.
Though I can understand that the pax felt a different way because sometimes AF crew can be very poor at communication ; especially when he got refused access to the lounge.

-AF terminal manager : No you can not access the lounge as it is for Elite and Business Pax
-In the pax mind : AF could make a gesture as they are responsible for the flight clt but they do not want to see a bunch of 40 indians resting in their superbe business class lounge.

AF crew tend to be condescending with all pax whatever their origin if you take that into account that's a different story..