Henry III

Ok so perhaps the title is a wee bit misleading, but it's technically true, as far as I can tell ...

As from 29th October 2012, the four daily (weekday) flights, EDI-CDG and v/v (all coded AF5xxx) are to be replaced by three daily flights (with 'regular' AF flight codes: 1xxx or 2xxx). At least, they are according to the AF Desktop Timetable.

However, the equipment still shows as ARJ for all three flights and, AFAIK, AF doesn't have any Avros in its 'own' fleet.

So, are CityJet giving some of their planes to the AF mainline fleet, or are the flight numbers just being changed?

In fact, when I now try booking EDI-CDG on the CityJet website (even for dates prior to Oct 29th), I get redirected to the Air France website. This never used to be the case.

Actually, the EDI-CDG route has always been something of an anomaly. I believe it's the only CityJet route that doesn't use LCY (other than some former VLM routes) and I have never seen it included on their route maps. Also, when I once had to call AF ticketing for an EDI-CDG r/t, the lady who deslt with me actually said, "Oh, I didn't realise we did that route!"

I'm just curious as to what fellow FTers* may think is the significance of this subtle change.

-- Henry

* Especially the CityJet insider in our midst.

irishguy28

Quite a few changes to come regarding CityJet. AF have ordered a strategic review, and are even considering selling it.

There's also DUB-CDG, all RJ85 flights, though the cityjet website also redirects to airfrance.ie to book that, too. I think CityJet still operates NCL-CDG too, and perhaps a few services from CDG to Italy.

Henry III

Selling it - that doesn't sound very promising for my EDI-LCY (work-paid) segment runs!

Ah! I wasn't aware of that one ... very similar situations (at least, in the mind of Alex Salmond).

-- Henry

irishguy28

Actually, the only non-VLM route that doesn't touch LCY as shown on CityJet's route map (below the current map from Velocity) is the seasonal Dublin-Pau - which I believe may pre-date most of the other routes, as this was a route which was occasionally flown by CityJet long before the AF route, if memory serves me correctly!!

Henry III

After having read your first post, I went back to the CityJet website and noticed the same thing. What I also noticed - with respect to the two routes we mentioned earlier - is that there is absolutely no acknowledgement of the existence of Paris CDG anywhere on the CityJet website!

Do we have here a clue?

-- H

irishguy28

I guess that, for whatever reason, the CDG routes fall more under the category as "Air France (by Cityjet)" and perhaps AF prefers not to "confuse" passengers by over-emphasising the actual carrier when it's not mainline AF...

NickB

I distinctly remember a DUB-BOD WX route yonks ago (was originally WX code only but ended up on a dual WX/AF code) but not the DUB-PUF one.

orbitmic

Sounds a bit like LH pre-BMI sale. They started 'reclaiming' all routes to/from Germany to then sell BMI and all its slots to the BA giant.

delanotre

I flew two times from CDG to EDI (and return) last month: one ticket on FlyBe and second on Air France.
The 4 flights were operated by City Jet for Air France
(FlyBe, access to the lounge in CDG and EDI, because in Premium Voyageur, but no FB miles)

Concerto

Is the WX code used at all any more, or has it been dropped?

Goldorak

In fact, EDI-CDG has never been a WX route but is indeed an AF route. AF has flown to EDI long before their partnership with WX. But it has been rarely (or never ?) operated by AF mainline fleet but was (and is still) operated under a franchise agreement. I have flown this route about 30-40 times for the last 13 years, so I can give you a bit of history (dates below are approximative, based on my memory) :
- in 1998-1999, there was one daily flight around mid-day from CDG (so very inconvenient), operated by F100 (don't remember if it was a BritAir one or a Regional one). Then, this daily flight was operated by a 737 of L'Aéropostale on behalf of AF. For those of you who have not known this airline, it was the air freight subsidiary of the French Post. They had a fleet of B737. During the night, all seats were removed (quickly) and the planes were used to carry mail across the country. And during the day, planes with seats were flying some AF routes and some charter flights. La Poste has sold this subsidiary about 10 years ago and is now called Europe Airpost and is operating some charter flights.
- from 2000 to may be 2003 (again, approx), we moved from 1 to 3 daily flights at much more convenient times, operated on BAe146 of Jersey European on behalf of AF. During this period, this airline became British European (BE) which is now well-known as FlyBE. I think BE stopped to operate the route for AF, when they transformed themselves in a low cost airline FlyBE.
- then the route was (and is still) operated by CityJet since that time with BAe146/AvroRJ85.

So this change announced by Henry III seems strange if the Avro is still operating the flight (but may be it will be Avro from anther airline ?). I believe there is surely a link with the announce of big changes coming for AF/WX agreement.

KQ321

This CAPA article "As CityJet finalises restructuring it might escape Air France’s short-haul overhaul" from early June is interesting.

In particular, it states:
If this is correct, then the question may not be so much "why is CDG-EDI changing to regular AF1xxx flight numbers?", but rather "why has CDG-EDI been operating under CityJet AF5xxx flight numbers until now?" (As CDG-EDI is presumably part of the AF franchise, rather than CityJet's own activity).

Anyhow, I find the talk of a possible sale of CityJet rather sad, as in principle, I like the concept (including a good service out of LCY) very much. That said, 3 flights I've had booked on CityJet in the past few months (all LCY-AMS or vv, as part of a longer KL booking in each case) have been cancelled, apparently for different reasons each time. (In 2 cases I was rebooked to a different flight, and in 1 case re-routed). I also think it's unfortunate that they haven't been able to introduce or sustain services from LCY to locations such as GVA or FRA, both of which would appear to be obvious business destinations from London, and a direct flight from LCY would be a lot more convenient than trekking out to LHR, and having to connect in AMS or CDG.

Goldorak

I did a dummy booking on AF web site and it is indeed strange. Nonstop flights are displayed as "operated by : Air France" and plane : AvroRJ85. And connecting flights (i.e ORY-LCY-EDI) are shown as "operated by : CityJet".

Henry III

I would hate to think that AF were thinking of selling off CityJet and replacing their routes with FlyBE codeshares. Like KQ321, I find the concept of no more AF/WX cooperation saddening.

AFAIK, the WX code has not been used for flight listings or ticketing for many years, but I think it still has its place in terms of ATC 'callsigns'.

An excellent article - thanks very much for posting the link. Also, I share your feelings about the possible sale of CityJet, especially (vide supra) if it means having far more AF/BE codeshares - not to mention those wonderful sugar 'tablets'!

I guess we will just have to keep a close eye on developments and hope for the best.

-- Henry

Bluestar

There are indeed reasons to be concerned about what'll happen with CityJet, but the change of flight number on EDI-CDG is for a considerably simpler and more prosaic group-internal reason. Until a couple of seasons ago, the CityJet CDG routes were franchised from Air France (i.e. the commercial risk was nominally at CityJet level) and the flight numbers were in the AF5xxx range which corresponded to the franchised range. AF made a decision to switch all subsidiary flying to a wet-lease basis (i.e. the commercial risk at Group level, therefore improving the P&L of the subsidiaries), and corresponding to this the flight numbers were changed to AF mainline. The physical metal is generally unchanged (ie CityJet). The LCY network is flown at CityJet's commercial risk and hence appears under AF5xxx flight numbers and "operated by CityJet" in the booking engines.