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End of ID/BP cross-check at boarding in France for AF flights, starting May 15th

End of ID/BP cross-check at boarding in France for AF flights, starting May 15th

Old May 11, 12, 6:40 am
  #16  
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Originally Posted by choijw View Post
at cdg 2e, airport security checked BP + ID. no need for ID on boarding cdg-mia. surprised at lack of passport controls for exiting schengen....
Err, if departing from 2E without a connection, I can't see how you can skip the passport check before reaching the security check, or am I missing something?

Last edited by JOUY31; May 11, 12 at 7:11 am
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Old May 11, 12, 7:14 am
  #17  
 
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Originally Posted by JOUY31 View Post
Err, if departing from 2E without a connection, I can't see how you can skip the passport controls check before reaching the security check, or am I missing something?
oops i mis-spoke: need to add a "thorough" between "of" and "passport"....

everytime i enter or leave schengen, border patrol usually asks for my residence permit. a week ago, they did not take more than a cursory glance at my us passport and waived me through.
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Old May 12, 12, 12:15 pm
  #18  
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Originally Posted by Richelieu View Post
So, harmonization is the sole benefit? I'll sleep better tonight knowing that aircraft boarding procedures are identical in the Schengen space...
No, it is not harmonisation. It is much more than that - it is the right of free movement of people, the right to travel throughout the Schengen area (regardless of the mode of transportation) with the same ease as you would have to travel within your town or within your country and it is about the fact that any suspension of that right needs to be justified by the authorities which want to implement it. Latest polls show that for most citizens, borderlessness is the single most important symbol of European integration and it is great that at last, France will stop lagging behind.

I can completely understand that you don't think people have much of a reason to hate this particular suspension of the Schengen agreements, but it was a suspension (based on Vigipirate) and as all suspensions needed to be positively justifiable and justified (as with all cases of identity checks by or on behalf of) public authorities. And I for one did not see a justification to it in the sense that there is no reason to conduct match checks when people board a plane and not when they board a train.

So here is at least one very happy (and unashamedly europhile) person about the change because it strengthens the right of free movement within the EU and has my heart-felt support as such.
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Old May 12, 12, 1:01 pm
  #19  
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Originally Posted by orbitmic View Post
So here is at least one very happy (and unashamedly europhile) person about the change because it strengthens the right of free movement within the EU and has my heart-felt support as such.
I don't have a problem with this decision by French police authorities for airline passenger transport within the Schengen area.

On the other hand, I did not feel that this cross-check was hindering me in any way from travelling within the EU, much less in any case than the passport checks required when entering the UK & the ROI.
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Old May 12, 12, 1:06 pm
  #20  
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Originally Posted by JOUY31 View Post
much less in any case than the passport checks required when entering the UK & the ROI.
or vice-versa when entering Schengen space from UK/Ireland, especially when the CDG PAF cannot be bothered to open EU nationals lanes.
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Old May 12, 12, 1:14 pm
  #21  
 
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Originally Posted by orbitmic View Post
No, it is not harmonisation. It is much more than that - it is the right of free movement of people, the right to travel throughout the Schengen area (regardless of the mode of transportation) with the same ease as you would have to travel within your town or within your country
These checks existed also for domestic flight, didn't they? [I never paid attention...]

and it is about the fact that any suspension of that right needs to be justified by the authorities which want to implement it.
It was the airline, not the government, that did that check. I have no problem proving I am the owner of a plane ticket before boarding. Or, for that matter, proving I am the owner of a train ticket when onboard a train.

And I for one did not see a justification to it in the sense that there is no reason to conduct match checks when people board a plane and not when they board a train.
Actually, they can ask for ID if you're using a nominative train ticket. This wasn't suspended AFAIK.

So here is at least one very happy (and unashamedly europhile) person about the change because it strengthens the right of free movement within the EU and has my heart-felt support as such.
Of course, since it's after May 6th, everything the authorities do is a move for the best, mais quand męme...

I agree that checking ID wasn't improving security, though, and if this was the official reason for doing that, then it should be scrapped, not because it's problematic but because it's stupid to do it for this reason (as is most of the security theater at airport).

Last edited by Richelieu; May 12, 12 at 1:20 pm
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Old May 12, 12, 1:17 pm
  #22  
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Originally Posted by Richelieu View Post
It was the airline, not the government, that did that check.
It was carried out by the airline but was it mandated by public authorities or was it the airline's own initiative? That is not the same thing.
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Old May 12, 12, 1:34 pm
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Originally Posted by NickB View Post
It was carried out by the airline but was it mandated by public authorities or was it the airline's own initiative? That is not the same thing.
I honestly don't know, but I can totally see the interest in the airline. They take effort to say tickets are non transferable, and if there is no longer BP/ID match done, how can they prevent people for reselling tickets, or people to credit their flights to another person account?

Edit: and if the point of the change is transfering ID-check-when-boarding to ID-check-at-the-security-check, well...

Last edited by Richelieu; May 12, 12 at 2:05 pm
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Old May 12, 12, 4:54 pm
  #24  
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Originally Posted by NickB View Post
It was carried out by the airline but was it mandated by public authorities or was it the airline's own initiative? That is not the same thing.
new rules brought up by DGAC - french aviation authority
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Old May 12, 12, 9:57 pm
  #25  
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Could someone who has experienced the new system confirm the exact arrangements, especially for a domestic French flight? Where is the ID required?
1) You check in at the counter, do they ask for ID?
2) Do they require ID at security?
3) You board, do they require for ID?

If they still require ID at counter, what about OLCI? Would they check ID at boarding gate?

I know that BP checking when boarding the plane has been removed and that is great. It seems that we are now moving to a US-type procedure.
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Old May 13, 12, 2:57 am
  #26  
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Originally Posted by brunos View Post
Could someone who has experienced the new system confirm the exact arrangements, especially for a domestic French flight? Where is the ID required?
1) You check in at the counter, do they ask for ID?
2) Do they require ID at security?
3) You board, do they require for ID?

If they still require ID at counter, what about OLCI? Would they check ID at boarding gate?

I know that BP checking when boarding the plane has been removed and that is great. It seems that we are now moving to a US-type procedure.
Jouy31 said it is applicable from may 15, so Tuesday
Yesterday at ORY, it was as usual : ID check at check-in and at boarding (gate). At security, I never had to show ID at Parisian airports (but I know it happens at some others - I have NCE in mind).
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Old May 13, 12, 3:38 am
  #27  
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Originally Posted by chrissxb View Post
new rules brought up by DGAC - french aviation authority
The rules about checks were decided by government, and DGAC was in charge of organising the implementation details of the measure (and empowered either airlines or security companies to conduct the identity match checks depending on alert levels and destination). The principle was solely decided by government in the context of the Plan Vigipirate. It is due to the fact that France never went below the yellow level from its very start (and in fact, never below red since July 2005). Details of what is to be done for each level are underneath the various links there: http://www.sgdsn.gouv.fr/site_rubrique98.html. The airlines were neither in demand nor responsible for the checks, and the same airlines simply do not carry the same checks when flying from other airports (e.g. if you fly BRU-LYS you don't need to show an identity document when boarding in Brussels but when you fly your return from LYS-BRU you do). Moreover, airlines would still be entirely able to do it at any stage if they wanted, be it at boarding gate, or even forcing people to go to the check in desk if that takes their fancy. They could even ask the passenger to show the credit card used to pay the ticket (several airlines do) or something else (within the law and within their clearly advertised conditions. Indeed, I am sure certain low costs airlines will make it a commercial rule for the flights they operate to avoid illicit transfers). What is changing on 15 May is simply what the Government is imposing.

The UK and the RoI are not signatories of the Schengen agreement and their exemption was confirmed in the Amsterdam treaty. They are, therefore, not affected by the Schengen definition of the free movement of people. France is, and is therefore tied by the general point that in principle, according to the Schengen agreement, you should be able to travel within and throughout the Schengen area without needing to carry or show id (a measure, which, of course, is again made less relevant in France by recent law saying that one is supposed to carry an id on French territory at all time).

I didn't mean to discuss my opinion of Schengen in principle (however strong), but I would say that on this measure, we French and UK residents are least well placed to comment: the UK is not in Schengen so we need id to go more or less anywhere anyway, and in France, we always had that obligation so took our id with us out of principle. However, I have had, for instance, Belgian cousins coming to France for the day or a weekend and missing their flight back because they did not have an id with them (and before someone says 'how silly of them', why should they since they knew they didn't need to fly out of BRU?) and needing to have it sent by courrier plus buy a new ticket. They were not happy.

Now, the rules become more transparent and whether people are in favour or against, make it clear what difference Schengen makes - If you fly within Schengen: (1) you do not need to show id unless the airline tells you they want you to for commercial reasons (but in which case they need to inform you clearly), (2) you do not need to reclear security when you have a connection if the terminal is equipped with a dedicated ex-Schengen transfer channel, which most large and medium sized airports within the area now have (3) conditions for passengers from/to non-Schengen countries do not change.
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Old May 13, 12, 3:47 am
  #28  
 
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Originally Posted by orbitmic View Post
So here is at least one very happy (and unashamedly europhile) person about the change because it strengthens the right of free movement within the EU and has my heart-felt support as such.
No-ID-Control has nothing to do with "free movement". That has somtingh to do with Visa.

I don't like that there are no ID-Controls anyomore between borders. Now every criminal has "free movement".
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Old May 13, 12, 4:16 am
  #29  
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Originally Posted by orbitmic View Post
France is, and is therefore tied by the general point that in principle, according to the Schengen agreement, you should be able to travel within and throughout the Schengen area without needing to carry or show id (a measure, which, of course, is again made less relevant in France by recent law saying that one is supposed to carry an id on French territory at all time).
However, I have had, for instance, Belgian cousins coming to France for the day or a weekend and missing their flight back because they did not have an id with them (and before someone says 'how silly of them', why should they since they knew they didn't need to fly out of BRU?) and needing to have it sent by courrier plus buy a new ticket. They were not happy.
You need to distinguish the need to show ID at the border and the need to be able to establish ID while on the territory of the host state. The Schengen agreement might have suppressed the former but has not suppressed the latter and several EU Member States DO require you to either carry ID with you at all times or,if not, may, in certain circumstances, require you to establish ID and detain you until your identity has been ascertained. Besides, the authorities may actually need to establish that you have a right to free movement under the Schengen agreement. Third country nationals, for instance, must have travel documents when going from one Schengen state to another and their sojourn in the other state is limited in time.

Further, Schengen states can reintroduce border checks in certain situations. Unless one has a crystal ball, one cannot, therefore, assume when you go to another schengen state that ID controls on crossing the border will not temporarily be reintroduced.

With due respect to your cousins, it seems to me, therefore, that it is perhaps not very clever for someone to go to another Schengen State without carrying ID with them and especially not to a state like France which requires the carrying of ID at all times.

Perhaps understandable if you are just popping over the border from Mouscron to Lille for lunch or to do some shopping but not, imo, if you are going from Brussels to Nice or Perpignan.
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Old May 13, 12, 5:15 am
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Originally Posted by orbitmic View Post
The airlines were neither in demand nor responsible for the checks, and the same airlines simply do not carry the same checks when flying from other airports (e.g. if you fly BRU-LYS you don't need to show an identity document when boarding in Brussels but when you fly your return from LYS-BRU you do).
I have no problem with any country saying you can fly anonymously: I don't think that checking ID improves security in any way on a plane. On the other hand, why would an airport be the only place in a country where your ID can't be checked?

Schengen agreements provide for free travel within the Schengen area (no need for a passport, no need to ask for visa or respect 90-days stays, etc.) They don't states that you should be able to avoid ID checks within the Schengen area, just that border crossing shouldn't be treated differently than domestic travel. ID checks at airports are explicitely part of the Schengen Agreements :

The abolition of border control at internal borders shall not affect: [...]
(b) security checks on persons carried out at ports and airports by the competent authorities under the law of each Member State, by port or airport officials or carriers, provided that such checks are also carried out on persons travelling within a Member State;
It was negociated well before airport paranoia arose. The principle are within the Schengen Agreements themselves. Vigipirate is an implementation of them by the French government.

France is, and is therefore tied by the general point that in principle, according to the Schengen agreement, you should be able to travel within and throughout the Schengen area without needing to carry or show id (a measure, which, of course, is again made less relevant in France by recent law saying that one is supposed to carry an id on French territory at all time).
Well, I didn't read the Schengen agreement like you did.

(14) This Regulation is without prejudice to checks carried out under general police powers and security checks on persons identical to those carried out for domestic flights, to the possibilities for Member States to carry out exceptional checks on baggage in accordance with Council Regulation (EEC) No 3925/91 of 19 December 1991 concerning the elimination of controls and formalities applicable to the cabin and hold baggage of persons taking an intra-Community flight and the baggage of persons making an intra-Community sea crossing [5], and to national law on carrying travel or identity documents or to the requirement that persons notify the authorities of their presence on the territory of the Member State in question.
If national laws requires carrying ID, it is in concordance with the Schengen agreement. You're free to travel, but not necessarily to travel anonymously.

I can see that you object strongly to ID check, but this has nothing to do with Schengen. I strongly object to the liquid and gel silliness but I won't claim it's against the principle of free circulation of goods.

and in France, we always had that obligation so took our id with us out of principle.
Technically, you need to be able to prove your ID, not carry ID. Call for witness is an established way of doing that according to French law (but I've never seen anyone doing it except for children).


However, I have had, for instance, Belgian cousins coming to France for the day or a weekend and missing their flight back because they did not have an id with them (and before someone says 'how silly of them', why should they since they knew they didn't need to fly out of BRU?) and needing to have it sent by courrier plus buy a new ticket. They were not happy.

According to Brussels Airport website
:

En période d'affluence, il faut prévoir plus de temps pour trouver un parking, passer par les comptoirs de ticketing et d'enregistrement, se soumettre aux contrôles d'identité et de sűreté et embarquer ŕ bord de l'avion.
They are speaking of ID checks at security. I am confused, now: are they checking ID there? If so, what is the difference between checking there and checking at boarding?

Brussels Airport FAQ states :

Selon votre destination, il vous faudra une carte d'identité ou un passeport. Pour certains pays, il faut y ajouter un visa.
Attention: L'attestation de perte de carte d'identité n'est pas un document valable pour voyager!
Your relatives should have complied. I am not calling them silly, but the FAQ clearly doesn't advise traveling without any ID for any destination.

Now, the rules become more transparent and whether people are in favour or against, make it clear what difference Schengen makes - If you fly within Schengen: (1) you do not need to show id unless the airline tells you they want you to for commercial reasons (but in which case they need to inform you clearly), (2) you do not need to reclear security when you have a connection if the terminal is equipped with a dedicated ex-Schengen transfer channel, which most large and medium sized airports within the area now have (3) conditions for passengers from/to non-Schengen countries do not change.
This is not my reading of Article 21 and the preamble I quoted above.

On the tangeant point of reclearing security, is there a list of non-compliant airport? It could be a useful FT resource.

Last edited by Richelieu; May 13, 12 at 6:04 am
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