yno

Amsterdam is indeed cheap :-)

But try to get from Heathrow to London by means of the heathrow express... 32£ for a return ticket, 23£ for a single ride...

Mokshu

I think Vienna CAT is around 12 EUR.
And from Sydney airport it's pretty much the same.

And I've been recently to Berlin-Tegel, bus is only 2.60 EUR to get to Alexanderplatz (!).

NickB

Unless things have changed a lot very fast since I was there, I do not believe that Schiphol is served by a "dedicated rail link from the airport to town centre using dedicated infrastructure and not stopping between the airport and the town centre." Schiphol station is integrated in the overall rail network of the Netherlands and is served by normal trains rather than a dedicated premium service on its own track. The proposed Gare de L'Est service is an altogether different animal.

NickB

Not familiar with the CAT but SYD is again a "normal" train integrated in the overal SYD train network, albeit with a surcharge for stations within the airport area. And, while Europe is a somewhat relative concept depending on context, I believe that SYD is a little too far to qualify as being within "Europe".

Again, the bus to Tegel is not quite a dedicated airport train infrastructure proposition.

flyertalker00143

well, there is nothing premium about specific service between paris and airports

when you look at OrlyVal, it's just a skytrain...

and there is nothing to be expected from the new line (CDG Express) if i comes up one day... (i say if, because by the time they have debates, it could be canceled or the cost will double or triple...) (a mayor not ok with the project, a group of people willing to protect special species of some kind of unknown animal... wanting to divert the original route...)

on average, it takes about 15-20 years between something is decided and finally completed when it comes to railway topics

Mokshu

CDG Express is not a dedicated airport train infrastructure !
It will have a dedicated track between Paris Gare de l'Est and Aubervilliers, then it will use the same tracks as the RER B + Transilien K + TER Picardie until after Mitry Claye, then new track along the TGV line.

So as usual with the SNCF, if something happen on one of those lines, it will have side effects on all the lines as well...

NickB

But you could say the same about the Heathrow Express.
It seems to me pretty clear that this project is similar to the Heathrow Express product proposition, i.e. an alternative service priced at a premium fare to target a specific clientele while leaving alternative, 'normal' ways to reach the airport intact: you could still reach CDG by 'normal' RER in the same way as you can reach heathrow by 'normal' underground service without using the premium service.
While the 'premium' service may be nothing to write home about, it still is premium in that sense of a dedicated, comparatively fast (at least faster) than the ordinary service.

So pretty much like the Heathrow Express, then and unlike the other examples that have been mentioned up until now.

flyertalker00143

well, let's see the good side of it

for this huge price, we'll have no Romanian playing crappy guitar or whatever

or sc** people to deteriorate trains like they regularly do with brand new trains on the regular network, or to rob you

Zembla

A few examples that come to mind:
LHR Heathrow express costs 25.00 GBP (About 31 Euro), 15 minutes
ARN Arlanda Express (What a delightfull train!) 260 SEK (About 36 Euro), 20 minutes
OSL Flytoget 170 NOK (About 24 Euro), 19 minutes
CDG express 24 Euros, 20 minutes

So no, CDG express is not necesarily expensive, nor does it take long. It just terminates in an inconvenient station.

NickB

Something too it would share with the Heathrow Express.

Zembla

True! Or the JFK airtrain...

ranskis

Then you need to compare the distances, taking the shortest from airport to train end station using google maps (by car):
ARN Stockholm Central station: 41 km - 30 EUR - 20 min
LHR Paddington: 26 km - 24 EUR - 15 min
OSL Oslo central station: 50 km - 22EUR - 19 min
FCO Rome Termini: 32 km - 14 EUR - 30 min
NRT Tokyo station: 68 km - 23 EUR - 65 min
PVG Longyang station: 35 km - 5 EUR - 5 min!!!

and the winner is...

CDG Gare de l'Est: 22 km - 24 EUR - 20 min
ORY Antony: 8 km - 9 EUR - 7 min

So the French value proposition, in the country of Concorde and TGV: airport access at 60-70 km/h for over 1 EUR / km! Financed by everyone (all air passengers and French citizens... and partly privately) but profits with low investment risks are for a happy few! Or perhaps actually the risk is not commercial but rather political... for which I understand they need high fares to cover this high risk!

stimpy

As Mokshu said, the proposed CDG train is not dedicated infrastructure, and really who cares? There are many trains that go non-stop from Schiphol to Amsterdam Centraal each day, and if you happen to take one that makes a stop along the way, you really aren't out more than a few minutes. And there are premium trains too with the Fyra which cost far less than the HEX. And you could even hop on the Thalys if the conductor isn't looking.

And as someone mentioned the VIE CAT is indeed non-stop to city centre.

flyertalker00143

Well, speaking of the Narita Express

it is really really good

TV onboard with live news
live information feed (for instance if the train stops or is delayed/late, the reason is given instantly)
onboard food service (sandwiches and beverages) served at your seat (trolley going from car to car)
and the seats are comfy
air conditioning
and depending on which is your final destination, departing from Narita, they put you in the right train when purchasing tickets at the counter
cleaning is done right before departure and upon arrival and when completed, the employee salutes you to welcome you onboard


we'll probably see this level of service and this kind of train in Europe in 50 years... or never

NickB

It is (or rather would be) partly, exactly like the Heathrow express and, more to the point, is not integrated in the ordinary rail system, even though tracks might be shared on part of the way. This is very different from the AMS situation and its fully integrated system: there is not a special dedicated airport service with special tickets, special tariffs, special trains, etc...

macaron95 spoke of "similar service". The point I was making was that it is not a similar service but a very different kind of service concept, more like the Heathrow Express. I was not expressing a view as to whether it is better or worse, whether there are great trains between Schiphol and AMS, etc... but rather that, commercially, we are simply not talking about the same kind of animal.

As I said, I am not very familiar with the CAT although, from my relatively uninformed perspective, it does indeed look quite similar in terms of providing a dedicated direct link, which is designed as an alternative to the "ordinary service" and priced substantially more than the latter: a premium of circa 300% for the CAT compared to the ordinary S-bahn, according to the VIE website, so not quite the same price differential as Tube vs Hex or RER vs proposed new link, but also not the same travel time differential either, at least as far as the Hex is concerned (merely 15 vs 25 mins for S-Bahn/CAT differential).