Apr 8, 2018, 10:40 pm
Last edit by: UA Fan
Routes that do not have fuel surcharges (YQ) when operated by carriers that normally charge YQ:
1. USA-Germany-Other country. If only the Germany-other country segment is on LH it does not have YQ. E.g. DFW-FRA-BLR with TATL on UA and FRA-BLR on LH.
2. USA-Canada-Other country. The USA-Canada segment on AC does not have YQ if the Canada-Other country segment is operated by a carrier that does not charge YQ. E.g. DFW-YYZ-ADD.
1. USA-Germany-Other country. If only the Germany-other country segment is on LH it does not have YQ. E.g. DFW-FRA-BLR with TATL on UA and FRA-BLR on LH.
2. USA-Canada-Other country. The USA-Canada segment on AC does not have YQ if the Canada-Other country segment is operated by a carrier that does not charge YQ. E.g. DFW-YYZ-ADD.
Please list your AP Taxes and SURCHARGES on AP reward tickets
Mar 4, 2014, 5:35 pm
#1561
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto
Programs: UA 1K, AC MM E75, Marriott LT Ti, IHG Dia Amb, Hyatt Glob
Posts: 15,521
Mar 4, 2014, 5:47 pm
#1562
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: West
Posts: 3,357
Is it a mystery? I thought it was pretty clear that AC charges fuel surcharges on carriers where its own frequent flyers have to pay fuel surcharges?
For example, if you are a M&M member and redeem a flight you are charged fuel surcharges if you were to fly on LH. Thus AC decided that they can therefore charge fuel surcharges to any flights on LH. That the surcharge charged by AC may be more than the M&M member is another story (not sure if this happens for LH but I remember some funny business with NZ but that may have been because AC has a fuel surcharge that was different from the NZ one so it goes with the AC one which was higher).
Of course none of that money actually goes to LH, it goes to line the pockets of AC. AE is just collecting it on behalf of AC so they aren't the bad guy for once (though they could have told AC to get bent I suppose and put up a fight).
US/UA/AV do not charge fuel surcharges to their members on reward flights so AC would have more difficulty justifying the collection of fuel surcharges on behalf of those airlines. I wouldn't be surprised if they started one day but since I don't have any AE points anymore I don't really care.
For example, if you are a M&M member and redeem a flight you are charged fuel surcharges if you were to fly on LH. Thus AC decided that they can therefore charge fuel surcharges to any flights on LH. That the surcharge charged by AC may be more than the M&M member is another story (not sure if this happens for LH but I remember some funny business with NZ but that may have been because AC has a fuel surcharge that was different from the NZ one so it goes with the AC one which was higher).
Of course none of that money actually goes to LH, it goes to line the pockets of AC. AE is just collecting it on behalf of AC so they aren't the bad guy for once (though they could have told AC to get bent I suppose and put up a fight).
US/UA/AV do not charge fuel surcharges to their members on reward flights so AC would have more difficulty justifying the collection of fuel surcharges on behalf of those airlines. I wouldn't be surprised if they started one day but since I don't have any AE points anymore I don't really care.
Mar 4, 2014, 6:51 pm
#1563
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: YYZ
Programs: MR Plat
Posts: 383
Mar 4, 2014, 9:38 pm
#1564
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: YVR to SEA
Posts: 2,535
I originally thought it might be some sort of code share or joint venture that dictated it, but there's contrary examples elsewhere too
Mar 5, 2014, 6:15 am
#1565
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: YHZ
Programs: UA PREMIER GOLD, AC*E25K, Best Western Diamond, Marriott Gold, NEXUS/GE
Posts: 131
on-line booking fail
yhz-yul AC J
yul-yyc AC J
yyc-sjd AC J
sjd-yyc AC J
yyc-ywg AC J
ywg-yhz AC J
Taxes/Fees - $179.46
Telephone Agent fee (web booking attempt stated it was an illegal routing) was an additional $34.50.
yul-yyc AC J
yyc-sjd AC J
sjd-yyc AC J
yyc-ywg AC J
ywg-yhz AC J
Taxes/Fees - $179.46
Telephone Agent fee (web booking attempt stated it was an illegal routing) was an additional $34.50.
Mar 5, 2014, 9:24 am
#1566
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: SFO
Programs: AC SE MM, BA Gold, SQ Silver, Bonvoy Tit LTG, Hyatt Glob, HH Diamond
Posts: 44,331
I couldn't pull up the SFO-YVR-YYZ I wanted, even though both flights had plenty of availability, so that will be $30 extra if I want them
Mar 5, 2014, 10:02 am
#1567
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: YYZ
Programs: AA LT Plat, AC 25K, Marriott Plat, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 1,137
My understanding of why Aeroplan charges additional taxes on award flights that UA MP does not is that the YQ causes the ticket to be treated as a revenue ticket for purposes of calculating tax.
We had seen this when AAdvantage started charging a small YQ on IB awards, which resulted in additional taxes being charges on those redemptions (which in some cases were more than the added YQ itself) - meaning the "small" YQ had an oversized effect on the total $ due.
We had seen this when AAdvantage started charging a small YQ on IB awards, which resulted in additional taxes being charges on those redemptions (which in some cases were more than the added YQ itself) - meaning the "small" YQ had an oversized effect on the total $ due.
Mar 5, 2014, 11:15 am
#1568
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada
Programs: UA*1K MM SK EBG LATAM BL
Posts: 23,305
Simple - its irrelevant. AC just makes up its own rules since the money all goes to them anyway
My understanding of why Aeroplan charges additional taxes on award flights that UA MP does not is that the YQ causes the ticket to be treated as a revenue ticket for purposes of calculating tax.
We had seen this when AAdvantage started charging a small YQ on IB awards, which resulted in additional taxes being charges on those redemptions (which in some cases were more than the added YQ itself) - meaning the "small" YQ had an oversized effect on the total $ due.
We had seen this when AAdvantage started charging a small YQ on IB awards, which resulted in additional taxes being charges on those redemptions (which in some cases were more than the added YQ itself) - meaning the "small" YQ had an oversized effect on the total $ due.
1) Aeroplan does not charge YQ - Air Canada does -they issue the ticket
2) charging YQ does not result in additional taxes - since YQ is not a tax.
And apologies, I am by no means anti-cattle - I am quite fond of a delicious steak
Mar 5, 2014, 2:22 pm
#1569
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: YYZ
Programs: AA LT Plat, AC 25K, Marriott Plat, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 1,137
My thinking was based on two things:
- some of these government taxes are eligible on a revenue ticket, but not on a "free" ticket
- when AA started including YQ on IB awards, they started charging certain taxes they hadn't previously - the assumption was that this is because the YQ results in the ticket not being treated as a "free" ticket anymore
However, this doesn't strictly apply here, because AC is charging taxes on Aeroplan awards where no YQ is charged (taxes that UA doesn't charge on MP awards).
That's a great point. Since they're separate organizations, does that means AC is selling Aeroplan the ticket and their lawyers have told them that means it's no longer a "free" ticket? I wonder if that's why AC is charging all these taxes on Aeroplan awards (for example, US Int'l Arrival/Departure Tax, US Facility Charge, etc.).
This logic may not apply to the NAVCAN surcharge, as that is not a government tax in the traditional sense, in that the amount is not mandated by NAVCAN, and AC actually collects it as a surcharge to "recoup" their NAVCAN costs (although they go well beyond that, as has already been demonstrated in this thread).
- some of these government taxes are eligible on a revenue ticket, but not on a "free" ticket
- when AA started including YQ on IB awards, they started charging certain taxes they hadn't previously - the assumption was that this is because the YQ results in the ticket not being treated as a "free" ticket anymore
However, this doesn't strictly apply here, because AC is charging taxes on Aeroplan awards where no YQ is charged (taxes that UA doesn't charge on MP awards).
This logic may not apply to the NAVCAN surcharge, as that is not a government tax in the traditional sense, in that the amount is not mandated by NAVCAN, and AC actually collects it as a surcharge to "recoup" their NAVCAN costs (although they go well beyond that, as has already been demonstrated in this thread).
Mar 5, 2014, 3:19 pm
#1570
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: YVR
Programs: AP*E SPG*G
Posts: 157
Classic vs. Market Reward Charges
Following along a bit with the conversation re: Revenue vs. Award ticket fee differences, I thought I would highlight another aspect of this which I find baffling. Here are the tax/fee breakdowns for the EXACT SAME one-way routing which I booked recently but booking as a 'Classic' award vs. a 'Market Fare' award. Both involve 'paying' with Aeroplan miles for the "base fare" plus cash for the fees/taxes. And yes, the Market redemption rate is about 16.6% higher than the Classic rate, but I do find the difference in taxes/fees utterly confusing:
So what it boils down to is that the 'Market' redemption fees don't seem to be charged NAVCan or Fuel Surcharges but the 'Classic' redemption does. Why?!
Fee-----------------------------------------------------Classic-----Market
Canada Domestic/International Air Travel Security Charge--$25.91-----$25.91
Canada Domestic/International Airport Improvement Fee---$20.00-----$20.00
Canada Goods And Service Tax----------------------------$1.00-----$1.00
U.S Agriculture Fee---------------------------------------$5.70-----$5.70
U.S. Customs User Fee------------------------------------$6.30-----$6.30
U.S. International Transportation Tax----------------------$20.00-----$20.00
U.S.A Immigration User Fee--------------------------------$8.00-----$8.00
Fuel Surcharge--------------------------------------------$27.00----$0.00
Nav Canada - Air Navigation Services----------------------$7.50------$0.00
Total per pax---------------------------------------------$121.41-----$86.91
Canada Domestic/International Air Travel Security Charge--$25.91-----$25.91
Canada Domestic/International Airport Improvement Fee---$20.00-----$20.00
Canada Goods And Service Tax----------------------------$1.00-----$1.00
U.S Agriculture Fee---------------------------------------$5.70-----$5.70
U.S. Customs User Fee------------------------------------$6.30-----$6.30
U.S. International Transportation Tax----------------------$20.00-----$20.00
U.S.A Immigration User Fee--------------------------------$8.00-----$8.00
Fuel Surcharge--------------------------------------------$27.00----$0.00
Nav Canada - Air Navigation Services----------------------$7.50------$0.00
Total per pax---------------------------------------------$121.41-----$86.91
Mar 5, 2014, 4:00 pm
#1571
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: West
Posts: 3,357
Following along a bit with the conversation re: Revenue vs. Award ticket fee differences, I thought I would highlight another aspect of this which I find baffling. Here are the tax/fee breakdowns for the EXACT SAME one-way routing which I booked recently but booking as a 'Classic' award vs. a 'Market Fare' award. Both involve 'paying' with Aeroplan miles for the "base fare" plus cash for the fees/taxes. And yes, the Market redemption rate is about 16.6% higher than the Classic rate, but I do find the difference in taxes/fees utterly confusing:
So what it boils down to is that the 'Market' redemption fees don't seem to be charged NAVCan or Fuel Surcharges but the 'Classic' redemption does. Why?!
So what it boils down to is that the 'Market' redemption fees don't seem to be charged NAVCan or Fuel Surcharges but the 'Classic' redemption does. Why?!
Mar 5, 2014, 4:15 pm
#1572
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: YEG
Posts: 3,717
Mar 5, 2014, 4:59 pm
#1573
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,830
This logic may not apply to the NAVCAN surcharge, as that is not a government tax in the traditional sense, in that the amount is not mandated by NAVCAN, and AC actually collects it as a surcharge to "recoup" their NAVCAN costs (although they go well beyond that, as has already been demonstrated in this thread).
- NavCanada is a non-government non-profit.
- NavCanada fees are charged to the airline on a per-aircraft basis; and are not charged on a per-passenger basis. Add to that the any increase in ATC fees charged by NavCanada (and the govt before it was spun out 20 years ago) have actually been quite minimal (well below the rate of inflation). These are not 'passenger fees', they are fees required by a company in order to operate. Much like the fact they need to pay telecoms for telecommunications services. Are we expecting a Telecom surcharge next?
Like many people, I don't have a problem with a fee that needs to be remitted in full to another agency (AIF, Security, taxes etc etc), and that fee amount is defined outside of the Airline, but when Airlines make up fee amounts it drives me crazy much in the same way that "Resort Fees" do for hotels. Essentially "Fuel Surcharge" and "ATC Surcharge" are no different than "Resort Fee". It's an arbitrary amount that has zero bearing on the cost of that service; and done purely to allow them to advertise a lower 'base' rate (and/or lower commissions)
Mar 5, 2014, 5:43 pm
#1574
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 2
Revenue vs Point Redemption..
Am I missing something? I priced out a revenue ticket in May--YYZ-MXP and I was quoted fares at low as $795.00.
Areoplan, when given the exact same dates, comes back with a crazy routing, 60,000 mileage points AND taxes of nearly 800.00 per person.
Is this normal?
Is there another way to get to continental Europe where the taxes aren't crippling?
It is hard to believe that the last time I travelled to Italy on a ticket, (2006) the total taxes,including a last minute booking fee, were 161.00.
Thanks for you help,
Areoplan, when given the exact same dates, comes back with a crazy routing, 60,000 mileage points AND taxes of nearly 800.00 per person.
Is this normal?
Is there another way to get to continental Europe where the taxes aren't crippling?
It is hard to believe that the last time I travelled to Italy on a ticket, (2006) the total taxes,including a last minute booking fee, were 161.00.
Thanks for you help,
Last edited by MsJessa; Mar 5, 2014 at 5:44 pm Reason: typo