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"Somewhat scary one near Winnipeg" - The AC Master Incidents Thread

"Somewhat scary one near Winnipeg" - The AC Master Incidents Thread

Old Oct 25, 2023, 8:30 am
  #4666  
 
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Originally Posted by eigenvector
Airlines should prepare for all reasonable eventualities but I'm not sure anyone would have handled accommodating 300 people in a country where you have no permanent presence particularly well. AC should of course reimburse out of pocket expenses for anyone who managed to find their own hotel room but considering many pax would have been stranded airside and the airline would have had no one on the ground besides the air crew to attempt negotiations with the immigration authorities, I donít really know what else can be done.
Most major airlines have third party handlers for adhoc flights.There would handle and then bill it to the airlines. Their job is to get hotels and food for the passengers mainly. In my experience normally the immigration authorities are fairly lenient in these situations if the airline hands over the passports to them and they can got to the hotel and when they com back and pick up the passports. `provided of course they do not have visas ton enter.
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Old Oct 25, 2023, 9:41 am
  #4667  
 
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Fun cross-over between two current topics: One of the passengers on that Toronto -> Delhi flight required a wheelchair, but Air Canada told the passenger, "You'll have to figure that out yourself".

I'm sure the AC staff on-hand were stressed out enough as it was, but yeah, that's not the right answer.
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Old Oct 25, 2023, 10:26 am
  #4668  
 
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Originally Posted by Davvidd
Most major airlines have third party handlers for adhoc flights.There would handle and then bill it to the airlines. Their job is to get hotels and food for the passengers mainly. In my experience normally the immigration authorities are fairly lenient in these situations if the airline hands over the passports to them and they can got to the hotel and when they com back and pick up the passports. `provided of course they do not have visas ton enter.
Airlines do not have firm arrangements with third party handlers as you've outlined in the event of an unexpected diversion. I think you overestimate the leniency of immigration authorities as I've experienced this first hand. One should NEVER be separated from their passport and it doesn't work that way.

Last edited by ACYYZ/SD; Oct 25, 2023 at 10:33 am
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Old Oct 25, 2023, 2:36 pm
  #4669  
 
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Originally Posted by ACYYZ/SD
Airlines do not have firm arrangements with third party handlers as you've outlined in the event of an unexpected diversion. I think you overestimate the leniency of immigration authorities as I've experienced this first hand. One should NEVER be separated from their passport and it doesn't work that way.
Let's also come to the defense of the "Air Canada employees" who were there and did nothing for the affected PAX. The ONLY AC employees that were there were the crew working the flight...pilots and FA's. They are not ground staff, they have not been trained to act as ground staff, and shouldn't be expected to become ground staff if something like this happens. They've just operated the flight this far and probably have a minimum rest time requirement to be able to operate the rescue flight when that plane arrives.

Lousy situation for all concerned for sure, but people need to understand that in extreme circumstances there are going to be challenging outcomes and manage their expectations accordingly.
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Old Oct 25, 2023, 3:56 pm
  #4670  
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Originally Posted by billdokes
They are not ground staff, they have not been trained to act as ground staff, and shouldn't be expected to become ground staff if something like this happens. They've just operated the flight this far and probably have a minimum rest time requirement to be able to operate the rescue flight when that plane arrives.
So AC didnt/couldnt/wouldnt do anything for the pax, but did they make arrangements for the crew, or was the crew left to fend for themselves as well?
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Old Oct 25, 2023, 4:14 pm
  #4671  
 
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Originally Posted by rankourabu
So AC didnt/couldnt/wouldnt do anything for the pax, but did they make arrangements for the crew, or was the crew left to fend for themselves as well?
Seriously...of course they made arrangements for the crew as a priority. As I mentioned, the crew likely had a minimum rest time in order for them to operate the rescue flight when it arrived, which is more important for the PAX in the interest that they want the delay to be as short as possible. It's also a lot easier to find accommodation for 16 people than 300 people. So yeah, it's crappy, but again, like I've said before there's the ideal, the desired and the practical. In this case, there's also the element of the possible. You're dealing with a lot of people who may not have standing to enter the country, maybe not a lot of accommodation options, not a lot of support on the ground because it was an EMERGENCY DIVERSION to a base that the airline doesn't fly to.

Please tell us, what should AC have done instead of what they did or didn't do?
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Old Oct 25, 2023, 4:24 pm
  #4672  
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Originally Posted by billdokes
Please tell us, what should AC have done instead of what they did or didn't do?
Neither me or you have an idea of what they did or didnt do for the crew. Was only wondering if anything was reported anywhere, like the first hand accounts of the stranded pax were.
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Old Oct 25, 2023, 5:28 pm
  #4673  
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Originally Posted by rankourabu
Neither me or you have an idea of what they did or didnt do for the crew. Was only wondering if anything was reported anywhere, like the first hand accounts of the stranded pax were.
Also, the crew, like most of frequent flyers, who know how to care for themselves.

Would I have been on board, I would have had a hotel already booked by the time the plane landed.
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Old Oct 25, 2023, 5:42 pm
  #4674  
 
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Originally Posted by RatherBeInYOW
Originally Posted by ACYYZ/SD
Airlines do not have firm arrangements with third party handlers as you've outlined in the event of an unexpected diversion. I think you overestimate the leniency of immigration authorities as I've experienced this first hand. One should NEVER be separated from their passport and it doesn't work that way.
If someone ever took my passport past their desk, I'd demand to see a consular official, so I agree there.

And to tangent off your point, at least if Wendover is to be believed, ETOPS requires not just fancy gear on particular aircraft. If a flight was to divert to the relative friendly location of, say, Dutch Harbor, probabally even before it was wheels down, some replacement flight (with extra catering) would already be taking off from LAX. PAX would have an extra hot meal in them before they landed, and a few hours in a hangar would be an amusing story.

I don't see why AC couldn't contract out to LH or A3 for a similar warm response to flying over central Asia.
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Old Oct 25, 2023, 5:53 pm
  #4675  
 
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Originally Posted by RangerNS
If someone ever took my passport past their desk, I'd demand to see a consular official, so I agree there.

And to tangent off your point, at least if Wendover is to be believed, ETOPS requires not just fancy gear on particular aircraft. If a flight was to divert to the relative friendly location of, say, Dutch Harbor, probabally even before it was wheels down, some replacement flight (with extra catering) would already be taking off from LAX. PAX would have an extra hot meal in them before they landed, and a few hours in a hangar would be an amusing story.

I don't see why AC couldn't contract out to LH or A3 for a similar warm response to flying over central Asia.
Because of course they had hours and hours to plan for this...what time of day was and at what point did they know they were diverting and to where? You really think someone at AC trying to manage a diversion and organize a rescue flight has LH or A3 on speed-dial saying get our PAX entry into the country, transportation and accommodation along with transportation back to the airport in time to meet the rescue flight...oh and it's 300 people...not 3, not 30...300!! Again, back to the ideal, the desired and the practical. How long was it again that they were on the ground before the rescue flight showed up? I think it was hours, not days. Again, crappy situation all around, but nobody has suggested any practical alternatives as to how it could have been handled differently under the circumstances, which if there were any I would love to hear them.
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Old Oct 25, 2023, 6:40 pm
  #4676  
 
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Originally Posted by billdokes
Because of course they had hours and hours to plan for this...
No. Hours are not the problem. AC (and the industry in general) has had several decades to plan for this. Its a lot safer to land "somewhere between Germany and India" vs "Vancouver and Japan", but never less happy. The industry has managed to address, in addition to safety, something close to comfort, in over the water long haul flights.
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Old Oct 26, 2023, 3:12 am
  #4677  
 
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Originally Posted by ACYYZ/SD
Airlines do not have firm arrangements with third party handlers as you've outlined in the event of an unexpected diversion. I think you overestimate the leniency of immigration authorities as I've experienced this first hand. One should NEVER be separated from their passport and it doesn't work that way.

It certainly does with that way for passengers who needs visa t enter that country. The Immigration are fairly lenient in these cases where the airlines takes responsibility for the passengers for the hotels in landside and bring them back to board their next flight. I been on all sides and it the airline is involved and takes reponsibiliy normally they are fairly relaxed. There people would all have Canadian visas certainly and not not trying to runaway somewhere.
Every airport has an airline operators committee and they look after all the issues for all the airlines where they operate there or had to do an emergency landing.
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Old Oct 26, 2023, 9:52 am
  #4678  
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Originally Posted by Davvidd
[...] The Immigration are fairly lenient in these cases where the airlines takes responsibility for the passengers for the hotels in landside and bring them back to board their next flight.

[...]

Every airport has an airline operators committee and they look after all the issues for all the airlines where they operate there or had to do an emergency landing.

In places like Kazakhstan? I would not be so sure. Even in Moscow, did you ever fly to Moscow? My expectation would be that no one would care, bureaucracy as usual.
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Old Oct 26, 2023, 2:05 pm
  #4679  
 
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I do know that in some countries/airports such companies/organizations exist and I have experienced them firsthand and heard about them secondhand, but they definitely arenít in every airport and they definitely canít handle every kind if situation, such as finding hotel rooms for 300 foreigners, or even finding 1000 yoga mats or cardboards in a snowstorm (YVR in 2022), and in some airports no such company exists at all.

I definitely donít expect AC or any airline to provide hotel rooms and hot meals in every diversion, especially in a foreign country, but I also need to ask, what did AC do, or attempt to do, to help the passengers?
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Old Oct 26, 2023, 2:30 pm
  #4680  
 
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Originally Posted by Davvidd
It certainly does with that way for passengers who needs visa t enter that country. The Immigration are fairly lenient in these cases where the airlines takes responsibility for the passengers for the hotels in landside and bring them back to board their next flight. I been on all sides and it the airline is involved and takes reponsibiliy normally they are fairly relaxed. There people would all have Canadian visas certainly and not not trying to runaway somewhere.
Every airport has an airline operators committee and they look after all the issues for all the airlines where they operate there or had to do an emergency landing.
Immigration loose? Not in India! I was in a similar situation last year.. diverted flight, multiple injuries.. though it never made the news... we did not have Indian visas (planned on transiting in Delhi) and spent the night in the airport before they would let us go to the hotel...

https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/34295151-post4482.html

Ron.
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