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"Somewhat scary one near Winnipeg" - The AC Master Incidents Thread

"Somewhat scary one near Winnipeg" - The AC Master Incidents Thread

Old Jan 11, 2018, 12:38 pm
  #3256  
 
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Originally Posted by jaysona
That is such an ignorant statement to make, the ACPA has very little to do with the pilots feeling secure about admitting to making a mistake. The self admission of making a mistake has everything to do with the safety culture that has been fostered in most western jurisdictions - with the exception of France, afaik - and has resulted in an overall increase in the safety level of flying.

The regulators and operators know that humans will always make mistakes, and many of the regulators realized quite some time ago that people would cover-up mistakes due to fear of retribution, so rules were instituted such that mistakes could be freely admitted without fear or concern of retribution. The main thought being that it is better for overall safety that mistakes are found out as soon as possible with complete transparency, thereby providing an understanding of how and why the mistakes occurred and the actions/processes needed to avoid such mistakes in the future.
Your comments make good sense in a perfect world. Such a shame we don't inhabit one. Some countries are better than others in their attitudes towards prioritizing safety, and within each country, different operators outshine others. May I respectfully suggest you study one of the lesser-known domestic Canadian airlines that operate large and diverse fleets of aircraft and have much less warm & fuzzy reputations for mutual, progressive improvement towards a common goal. You might have to look in places not visible from the windows of an MLL. Transport Canada recently suspended the OC of one such operator following the most recent fatal crash in this country. While you undertake your research, keep two questions in the back of your mind: where did Air Canada's civilian pilots gain their requisite flying hours prior to joining AC, and might that background influence their current comfort levels and trust in management?

Originally Posted by jaysona
With regards to the CVR recording limit, there is little reason to change that rule. The CVR is there to provide a record of what happened during an accident, generally a catastrophic accident in which the flight crew is killed. In this case there was no accident, the flight crew reported what had happened in the cockpit and there are the ATC recordings, all more than enough to determine the root cause and how to prevent such an occurrence again. The notion of increasing the amount of time a CVR records has been looked at, reviewed and is reviewed every few years, so far there has been no compelling reason to mandate an increased recording tome for the CVR, the FDR has been proven to be far more beneficial in accident investigations than the CVR.
Sonebody is out of touch with prevailing attitudes within the aviation safety community. The CVR is there to record what was said and heard during an accident, yes, but also in the event of a 'near miss' incident. Let's agree that both AC instances in SFO meet that criteria. Have you ever heard of the Heinrich Pyramid? It's also termed the safety pyramid. Google it, and tell me on which category of event we should focus our prevention strategies, if the goal is to prevent future accidents.

Accidents and incidents are often over in the blink of an eye. But they tend to form over a period of several hours. Hence my endorsement of a 12+ hour CVR transcript, and/or batch-sending audio files via satellite to a company server. Same goes for flight data recorders.

Here's just one question off the top of my head: were the ATC instructions audible in the AC cockpit? We know from ATC tapes they were broadcast. We know from multiple sources that they were received by other stations. But we have no idea - beyond the crafted declarations of a very motivated flight crew - whether they were audible in the AC pilots' headsets. I can think of several scenarios in which claiming I had prematurely switched the radio frequency would yield the very best possible outcome, resulting in the least impact upon my career. Of course, all of these scenarios, while possible and with precedent, are pure speculation on my part. The crew may be telling the absolute truth, or they may be altering facts to disguise a larger error or omission. The point is, we'll never know for sure. Unless somehow it were recorded.
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Old Jan 11, 2018, 4:27 pm
  #3257  
 
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Originally Posted by yyznomad
Canada A319 at Vancouver on Dec 10th 2017, burning vacuum

Incident: Canada A319 at Vancouver on Dec 10th 2017, burning vacuum
I had a totally different mental image of a Hoover/Elctrolux in mind when I saw this post.

But that would assume that AC cares to clean it's aircraft. Silly me.
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Old Jan 11, 2018, 4:30 pm
  #3258  
 
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Originally Posted by yyznomad
Canada Rouge B763 at Vancouver on Jan 1st 2018, audible thump on departure, unusual odour on climb

Incident: Canada Rouge B763 at Vancouver on Jan 1st 2018, audible thump on departure, unusual odour on climb

What is it with Rouge 767's out of YVR? They seem to have a consistent failure to launch.

Poor heron though. Hopefully CZAMFlyer didn't have to pick up the pieces, so to speak.
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Old Jan 11, 2018, 4:49 pm
  #3259  
 
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Originally Posted by Diabeetus
1. Soft Landing
2. Medium Soft Landing
3. Medium Hard Landing
4. Hard Landing
5. Yo Momma Landing
6. No Landing
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Old Jan 11, 2018, 4:54 pm
  #3260  
 
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Originally Posted by songsc


6. No Landing
Not sure about that one.

As my father used to say "They haven't left one up there yet"!
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Old Jan 11, 2018, 5:13 pm
  #3261  
 
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Originally Posted by CZAMFlyer
Here's just one question off the top of my head: were the ATC instructions audible in the AC cockpit? We know from ATC tapes they were broadcast. We know from multiple sources that they were received by other stations. But we have no idea - beyond the crafted declarations of a very motivated flight crew - whether they were audible in the AC pilots' headsets. I can think of several scenarios in which claiming I had prematurely switched the radio frequency would yield the very best possible outcome, resulting in the least impact upon my career. Of course, all of these scenarios, while possible and with precedent, are pure speculation on my part. The crew may be telling the absolute truth, or they may be altering facts to disguise a larger error or omission. The point is, we'll never know for sure. Unless somehow it were recorded.
The transmissions were not audible. That was known a very short time after the occurrence, as soon as the cockpit buttonology error was known.
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Old Jan 11, 2018, 5:46 pm
  #3262  
 
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Originally Posted by After Burner
The transmissions were not audible. That was known a very short time after the occurrence, as soon as the cockpit buttonology error was known.
Was there a finding about the "red light gun" that the tower shone at the aircraft when it failed to respond to instructions? Was that also not visible in the cockpit, or was it ignored by the crew?
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Old Jan 11, 2018, 7:41 pm
  #3263  
 
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Originally Posted by Bohemian1
I had a totally different mental image of a Hoover/Elctrolux in mind when I saw this post.

But that would assume that AC cares to clean it's aircraft. Silly me.
That was AC's last vacuum, it only gets even more filthier from here.
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Old Jan 11, 2018, 11:37 pm
  #3264  
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Originally Posted by jaysona
That is such an ignorant statement to make, the ACPA has very little to do with the pilots feeling secure about admitting to making a mistake. The self admission of making a mistake has everything to do with the safety culture that has been fostered in most western jurisdictions - with the exception of France, afaik - and has resulted in an overall increase in the safety level of flying.

The regulators and operators know that humans will always make mistakes, and many of the regulators realized quite some time ago that people would cover-up mistakes due to fear of retribution, so rules were instituted such that mistakes could be freely admitted without fear or concern of retribution. The main thought being that it is better for overall safety that mistakes are found out as soon as possible with complete transparency, thereby providing an understanding of how and why the mistakes occurred and the actions/processes needed to avoid such mistakes in the future.

With regards to the CVR recording limit, there is little reason to change that rule. The CVR is there to provide a record of what happened during an accident, generally a catastrophic accident in which the flight crew is killed. In this case there was no accident, the flight crew reported what had happened in the cockpit and there are the ATC recordings, all more than enough to determine the root cause and how to prevent such an occurrence again. The notion of increasing the amount of time a CVR records has been looked at, reviewed and is reviewed every few years, so far there has been no compelling reason to mandate an increased recording tome for the CVR, the FDR has been proven to be far more beneficial in accident investigations than the CVR.

The Canadian safety model leads the pack and is being looked at for possible adoption by several other countries. Now before everyone starts bemoaning about safety in Canada, blah, blah, blah, keep in mind that no system is perfect, and if you feel you have a better idea (and you're fully cognizant of the current regulations) then you should be writing to TCCA instead.
What utter tripe.

Contrary to the claim that there is never any consequence to admitting errors, pilots have been disciplined and even fired for mistakes made in the cockpit. Even if a given incident does not result in any immediate consequence there's no escaping that it might some day be of consequence either as an accumulation of errors, as a deciding factor in a competition, or even as a loss of reputation. This can be the case regardless if the incident is formally recorded or not.

Moreover there's a substantial and growing body of evidence that "eye witness" accounts are not nearly as reliable as once thought. Throw in a high-stress situation and recollection becomes even worse.

Now add in the social consequence of a discussion about, say, the hot flight attendant they spent the night with in FCO a couple of months ago, and you have yet another reason why someone might not be entirely forthcoming. They might not necessarily lie, but they might feel that omitting some details is OK, because they believe the details to be immaterial. Of course their belief will be coloured by that very omission. If they were in a supposedly sterile cockpit, that "innocent" omission might be greater yet.

To claim that investigators know what happened and have a complete understanding because "the flight crew reported what had happened in the cockpit" is complete nonsense. For a myriad of reasons from the innocuous to the downright sinister the flight crew's recollection of what happened in the cockpit is almost certainly not going to be 100% accurate, and might be substantially less than 100%. To claim that the ATC recordings tell you everything you need to know ignores the fact that the time spent on the radio to ATC is a miniscule fraction of the time spent during any incident.

So there's certainly a case to be made for extended CVR capacity.

On the other hand I've yet to hear any compelling reason why capacity should not be extended. So I'll offer one up: cost. The cost of storage these days is so small as to be immaterial, but adding that capacity to an already installed system might be a significant expense.

In that case just mandate that all CVR's manufactured after January 1 2019 and/or installed after January 1 2020 have a recording capacity of 2 or 12 or 24 or whatever the number is hours. Grandfather older systems so that the next time the CVR is checked, maintained, calibrated, or whatever the capacity must be increased - starting in 2025.

Sure, "no system is perfect." But that's hardly a good reason to not look for and implement improvements.

Any one who claims there is no good or compelling reason to increase the recording time has something to hide.

Last edited by KenHamer; Jan 12, 2018 at 7:10 pm
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Old Jan 12, 2018, 11:15 am
  #3265  
 
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I'll just leave this here:

AC0834/11JAN EQU ACA333H01
CTY TML ARR DEP GRND AIR CABINS J O Y
YYZ - 1800 - 01.13
YUL 1913 2050 01.37 07.15
GVA 1005*1 TOTAL TIME YYZGVA 10.05
RMKS/DLYD DUE MTC DIRTY SOCK SMELL
YYZ 1807 00:07L YUL 1927 00:14L 333 IFX AD AA
DEP TML T1 GATE --/D24
ARR TML GATE --/-----
YUL 2342 02:52L GVA 1302 02:57L 333 MTR AD AA
DEP TML GATE --/A51
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Old Jan 12, 2018, 11:30 am
  #3266  
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Originally Posted by YOWgary
I'll just leave this here:

AC0834/11JAN EQU ACA333H01
CTY TML ARR DEP GRND AIR CABINS J O Y
YYZ - 1800 - 01.13
YUL 1913 2050 01.37 07.15
GVA 1005*1 TOTAL TIME YYZGVA 10.05
RMKS/DLYD DUE MTC DIRTY SOCK SMELL
YYZ 1807 00:07L YUL 1927 00:14L 333 IFX AD AA
DEP TML T1 GATE --/D24
ARR TML GATE --/-----
YUL 2342 02:52L GVA 1302 02:57L 333 MTR AD AA
DEP TML GATE --/A51
For the record, it wasn't me.

I consider this a true hard landing.

And for those curious, fart licking does not produce such a smell.
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Old Jan 12, 2018, 11:42 am
  #3267  
 
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Originally Posted by yyznomad
For the record, it wasn't me.

I consider this a true hard landing.

And for those curious, fart licking does not produce such a smell.
I think that was your sock. Big fan BTW.
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Old Jan 12, 2018, 11:43 am
  #3268  
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Originally Posted by yyznomad
I vote that the threads should be split into

1. Soft Landing
2. Medium Soft Landing
3. Medium Hard Landing
4. Hard Landing
5. Glitch
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Old Jan 12, 2018, 11:47 am
  #3269  
 
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If Gimli was to happen to day, it would be a sous vide landing.
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Old Jan 12, 2018, 11:49 am
  #3270  
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Originally Posted by SparseFlyer
I think that was your sock. Big fan BTW.
#exposed2018

On the domestic portion, I wore my socks into the lav several times (like everyone here does, amirite? ) and admittedly they got soaked with urine.

So I left them in the seat back pocket but I guess the groomers didn't look there.

I hope everyone on TATL AC 834 enjoyed the lingering scent.
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