Pilots vote "NO" to 787s and 777s

Old Jun 18, 05, 8:25 pm
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Pilots vote "NO" to 787s and 777s

Just in from Airliners.net.
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Old Jun 18, 05, 8:59 pm
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I suppose it could be true, but nothing about it so far on the CBC, CP, ACPA website, G&M or Reuters...
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Old Jun 18, 05, 9:01 pm
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Originally Posted by Simon
I suppose it could be true, but nothing about it so far on the CBC, CP, ACPA website, G&M or Reuters...
I agree. Given the website source, can someone deny or confirm the rumour?
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Old Jun 18, 05, 9:04 pm
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The ultimate source of this rumor is the Airline Employee Forum, a paid subscription site sometimes reffered to as the the pilots b!tch page.

The truth is still comming out but a poster has just sugested that the vote was 961 for and 1100 against with approximately 1000 pilots not voting.

The one things we will never find out is the vote pattern between narrowbody and widebody pilots. There are some narrowbody pilots who would vote no just to stick it to the Company. These pilots may never see the pointy end of a 777/787 except to catch a ride to their next 320 flight.
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Old Jun 18, 05, 9:14 pm
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Unaudited results have been released and the agreement has NOT been ratified by the membership.

Should be an interesting week, alot of spin to come out of Montreal headquarters I suspect.

Seniority is still a very substantial issue for the majority of ACPA members, and is certainly a factor here. To what extent exactly is hard to judge.
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Old Jun 18, 05, 9:20 pm
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Originally Posted by YEG Guy
The truth is still comming out but a poster has just sugested that the vote was 961 for and 1100 against with approximately 1000 pilots not voting.

The one things we will never find out is the vote pattern between narrowbody and widebody pilots. There are some narrowbody pilots who would vote no just to stick it to the Company. These pilots may never see the pointy end of a 777/787 except to catch a ride to their next 320 flight.
Your numbers are reasonably close, the rest of your post is erroneous at best. The vote pattern is completely immaterial.

With the number of aircraft this order represents it affects every pilot at Air Canada no matter what equipment they are on currently. The order also impacts a significant amount of pilots who have yet to be hired, due to the high level of attrition that is coming in the next decade.
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Old Jun 18, 05, 9:24 pm
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Alright, way to vote against the future, and stick it to the man!
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Old Jun 18, 05, 9:25 pm
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^ good stuff
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Old Jun 18, 05, 9:28 pm
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Originally Posted by Simon
Alright, way to vote against the future, and stick it to the man!
Not about sticking it to the man.

I was just posting the facts as I know them, in an attempt to quell all the speculation and garbage that gets posted.
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Old Jun 18, 05, 9:29 pm
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Originally Posted by mtacchi
^ good stuff
Why is this good? How do you read it that way mtacchi?
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Old Jun 18, 05, 9:42 pm
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Air Canada's response . . . . . . .



Air Canada Notifies Boeing of Aircraft Order Cancellation Following Results of Pilot Vote
MONTREAL, June 18 /CNW Telbec/ - Air Canada said today that it has been
informed by the Air Canada Pilots Association (ACPA) that the tentative
agreement on costs and other issues relating to the Boeing order has been
rejected by the union membership. ACPA leadership had recommended ratification
of the tentative agreement which had been negotiated with the assistance of
Mediator Mr. M.G. Mitchnik. The Company accepts the pilots' decision and has
notified Boeing of the order cancellation.
The agreement with Boeing announced April 25 was subject to the
successful completion of certain conditions including the negotiation of
satisfactory terms by the airline with its pilots. The order is subject to
cancellation without penalty.
"We are naturally disappointed at having to cancel the wide body aircraft
order but these aircraft can only be brought into our fleet on a pre-
determined economic basis. Despite best efforts on the part of ACPA, the
agreement has been rejected," said Montie Brewer, President and CEO of Air
Canada. "Following a successful restructuring, Air Canada has been transformed
into a viable carrier. We cannot lose sight of the effort it took to get to
where the airline is today and while the cancellation of this aircraft order
will be disappointing to our employee group at large, including many of our
pilots, it is the right decision given the circumstances.
"The cancellation of the order is not material to our business plan over
the next few years. There is no longer a requirement for a cash outlay to
secure the order and we will seek to find alternative aircraft (of types
covered by the current collective agreement) in the used market for the three
777-300ER aircraft contemplated for 2006 delivery under this order (two for
Q2/06 and a third during Q4/06). We will adjust our plans and it is
anticipated that the company will continue to grow on an unaltered basis. The
critical component of the Boeing order were the 787 aircraft scheduled for
delivery in 2010 and beyond to replace our Boeing 767 fleet. In time we will
re-address this requirement.
"I thank ACPA's leadership for their efforts to secure an agreement which
would have allowed us to go forward with ordering new aircraft at this time.
It is naturally my hope that in time we will find ways to bring new aircraft
into the fleet in a manner acceptable to the company and our pilots," said Mr.
Brewer.
The agreement with Boeing included firm orders for 18 Boeing 777s, plus
purchase rights for 18 more, in a mix of the 777 family's newest models: the
777-300ER, the 777-200LR Worldliner , and the newly announced 777 Freighter.
Air Canada's 777 deliveries were scheduled to begin next year with the arrival
of three 777-300ERs in 2006. The renewal plan also included firm orders for 14
Boeing 787 Dreamliners, scheduled for delivery in 2010.
Montréal-based Air Canada provides scheduled and charter air
transportation for passengers and cargo to more than 150 destinations on five
continents. Canada's flag carrier is the 14th largest commercial airline in
the world and serves more than 29 million customers annually.
Air Canada is a founding member of Star Alliance providing the world's
most comprehensive air transportation network.
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Old Jun 18, 05, 9:47 pm
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Originally Posted by Overwing
Not about sticking it to the man.

I was just posting the facts as I know them, in an attempt to quell all the speculation and garbage that gets posted.
To be clear, my post was not directed at you personally, but the ACPA group in general. If this is still about seniority issues dealing with the CP merger, it is time to get over it: or quit. Time rolls on. Now we'll no doubt be stuck with 762s for years to come. Thanks guys!!!
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Old Jun 18, 05, 9:54 pm
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Originally Posted by Simon
To be clear, my post was not directed at you personally, but the ACPA group in general. If this is still about seniority issues dealing with the CP merger, it is time to get over it: or quit. Time rolls on. Now we'll no doubt be stuck with 762s for years to come. Thanks guys!!!
Something tells me we have not heard the last of this order for AC just yet.
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Old Jun 18, 05, 9:56 pm
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Originally Posted by Overwing
Your numbers are reasonably close, the rest of your post is erroneous at best. The vote pattern is completely immaterial.

With the number of aircraft this order represents it affects every pilot at Air Canada no matter what equipment they are on currently. The order also impacts a significant amount of pilots who have yet to be hired, due to the high level of attrition that is coming in the next decade.

The high level of attrition will mean that some OAC pilots will never fly the 777/787. They might move to the 767 before retiring, but this issue is not about the 767 pay.
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Old Jun 18, 05, 10:23 pm
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Originally Posted by Overwing
Air Canada's response . . . . . . .
Air Canada Notifies Boeing of Aircraft Order Cancellation Following Results of Pilot Vote
MONTREAL, June 18 /CNW Telbec/ - Air Canada said today that it has been...
Wow, that was fast, on a Saturday evening too...
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