Stranger

In the process of making the company profitable, I expect the CEO to be able to negociate deals that stick, work and are the best for the customers. Sorry but this is a major failure. How could RM not have seen this coming?

stinger

Well, as far as I can remember from collective bargaining 101. You don't actually bargain with the employees they have a group who bargain on their behalf. When this group recommends an agreement, usually the members follow their leadership. I don't think the problem is with RM as much as union leadership. Obviously the leadership didn't read the members very well.

Stranger

True. But orthogonal to what I was saying. We have every right to expect from a competent CEO to have seen this coming.

parnel

He obviously knew this might happen which is why the deal with Boeing included union acceptance. Therefore to say he didn't see it coming is orthogonal to what you are saying.

stinger

Have to agree with Parnel on this one. Had there not been a clause in the agreement and AC would have been out $200 million or make a deal with ACPA than yes, Milton would have been an idiot. However, he is able to cancel the deal and the pilots get what they want which is nothing but older aircraft to fly also dealing a blow to their customers. Good on ya!!

Even if a deal is done later, I would think that AC has lost it's spots on the assembly line for early delivery.

Stranger

To take insurance against the mess is not the same as avoiding putting themselves in this ugly situation in the first place.

He is not simply playing hardballs with pilots, but using his customers and shareholders as pawns in the game. First raising expectations then a cold shower, then what?

tw1tch

Well, if they don't have any new birds coming in the next 5 years, I'm off to another airline. Not flying old junkers with worn cabins when there are many other airlines flying new equipment on those long routes.

cedric

Of course it's logical. 8 hours is a long time to do any job without inturruption. Unless there's a magic pilot-making facility in FCO, I can't think of any other logical way to uphold a contract which AC and the pilots AGREED to. FWIW, there's a third pilot on all transat US flights - who gets a C seat.

parnel

BS, AC evaluated the two competing planes and came up with Boeing but had some union issues to deal with. He signed the deal conditionally. So, what ugly situation is there? He can go and Deal with AB or he can wait until the next collective agreement is bargained or he can go after the union. He has options.
He is protecting shareholders by not getting into a long term deal that costs too much and he may still have new seats in the old planes on time. Pawns, I don't think so; he knows how fickle the customer base is.
I'm starting to think you are either a disgruntled employee or ex employee of AC or even worse, a union thug or maybe a WS exec or employee..

stinger

On a related note. How much would a WJ pilot earn compared to an A320 pilot at AC with similar seniority? Anyone know a ballpark comparison?

Stranger

Getting the money back is mere damage control. He would have been utterly irresponsible if not having that clause. Losing delivery spots is a serious matter.

I continue saying that he should have managed to get the pilots to sign on the deal, or that as customers or shareholders, we had every right to expect him to. Sure, it may be that if you look at the current issue in isolation, there might not have much he could do. But then, why did he raise everyone's expectations, if in the end, he is not able to deliver?

Also remember, this is the guy who was involved in the bankruptcy, and a good deal of what preceeded. You got to look at the overall record. So he has to get his share of the blame in the pilot mess too. That sort of an issue best gets resolved, rather than simply being pushed into the future. When it leads to the current mess eventually, back with a vengeance.

All that extra luggage makes him damaged goods when it comes to union negociations.

Stranger

He raised expectations, made lots of noise about the deal with Boeing, and then in the end, he can't deliver. If he really was prepared that this might have happened, then he should have kept the thing low key until getting the agreement.

I am starting to think that maybe when not long ago, he suddenly started talking about getting the union deal, but timing was odd, perhaps was when he started smelling the roses?

(And no, I am not any of the above on your list. Actually, I was doing my flying business with AC before the CP demise. And I don't patronize WS. Never flew them. And I don't have a personal grudge against RM either; although I thought that book business was unwise and in bad taste. Casting yourself as a minor god tends to come back and hit you.)

SEA_Tigger

The upstairs crew rest areas do have pretty decent seating.

yyznomad

Looks pretty sweet to me.

passport

This whole situation is very sad indeed. Having recently flown in a relatively new LH 333 (with lie-flat seating) as well as an SQ 747 and 777, AC really has do something with their aircraft interiors. Tranferring from an AC 763 to one of these is a rude awakening and highlights just how run down their aircraft are.