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Program choices: decision making tools
I've started putting serious work into choosing a program for next year. It occurs to me that others might find this info useful, so I'll post it here. It's still a work in progress, and will continue to progress probably until the middle of January (as I don't have any travel scheduled until then.)
The first is a list of destinations that each airline under consideration flies to. This is important to me because generally you can only easily upgrade on flights operated by your carrier of choice, and not codeshares. (There are exceptions, but for my purposes they are not yet significant.) The first, and so far only, airline is AA. They are weak in the "A's" -- Africa, Asia, and Australia, not bad in Europe, and have a lock on the Americas including the Caribbean. Here's their list in no particular order, with other airlines to follow shortly. [(S) = Seasonal] AA --------------- Europe Glasgow (S) Manchester London Madrid Paris Zurich Frankfurt Brussels Rome (S) South America Maracaibo Medeilin Bogato Cali Quito Guayaquil Lima Santiago Buenos Aires Montevideo Asuncion Sao Paulo Rio de Janeiro Santa Cruz La Paz Belo Horizonte Caracas Asia Tokyo Central America Belize Guatemala San Salvidore Managua San Jose (CR) Panama San Pedro Sula Tegucigalpa Caribbean Freeport Marsh Harbour Nassau George Town Providenciales Bermuda Grand Cayman Montego Bay Kingston Port-au-Prince Santiago Puerto Plata Santo Domingo Caaa de Campo Punta Cana San Jaun (PR) Mayaguez St Thomas St Croix Tortola Beef Isl Anguilla St Maarten St Kitts Pointe-a-Pitre Dominica St Lucia Canouan Isl St Vincent & Gren Barbados Grenada Port of Spain Aruba Curacao Bonaire Mexico Monterry Los Cabos Aguascalientes Leon-Guanajuato Guadalajara Puerto Vallarta Acapulco Mexico City Cancun Canada Vancouver Calgary Toronto Ottawa Montreal [This message has been edited by Ken hAAmer (edited Dec 23, 2003).] |
guess that's why they are "American" Airlines!
Thanks Ken, didn't know they flew to ALL those places in South America |
Here's United. Good in Asia and Australia, weak in Africa, so-so in the Americas (particularly Mexico, after March 31) and Europe.
United --------------- Europe London Amsterdam Brussels Paris Frankfurt Munich Asia Singapore Bangkok Hong Kong Tokyo Taipei Shanghai Beijing Seoul Osaka Australia Sydney Melbourne Central America San Jose (CR) San Salvador Guatemala Caribbean Grand Cayman San Juan (PR) St Thomas Aruba Mexico Mexico City Canada Vancouver Calgary Edmonton Winnipeg Toronto Montreal [This message has been edited by Ken hAAmer (edited Dec 23, 2003).] |
Here's Delta. Excellent to Europe, weak to Asia, Africa and Australia, decent in the Americas.
Delta --------------- Europe Moscow Istanbul Athens Shannon Dublin Manchester London Madrid Barcelona Nice Paris Brussels Amsterdam Frankfurt Munich Stuttgart Zurich Venice Milan Rome South America Caracas Barranquilla Cartegena Medellin Pereira Cali Bogota Lima Santiago Sau Paulo Asia Tokyo Mumbai Central America San Jose (CR) San Salvador Guatemala Panama Guanacaste Liberia Caribbean Aruba Curacao St Maarten San Juan (PR) St Thomas Turks & Caicos Grand Cayman Montego Bay Nassau Freeport Mexico Cabo San Lucas Guadalajara Mexico City Leon Cancun Canada Vancouver Calgary Toronto Montreal Ottawa Halifax |
For United, I believe their U.S. hubs are IAD, ORD, SFO, DEN and LAX. For some reason, U.S. cities have been omitted from the listing.
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I think it's because Ken's just assuming the US carriers will fly just about anywhere and everywhere in the US.
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AA big hubs are in ORD, DFW, MIA, STL with major ops in LAX, SEA and BOS.
DL hubs out of ATL, SLC, CVG and DFW US hubs out of PIT, PHL, DCA NW hubs out of MSP, DTW, SEA and MEM CO hubs out of CLE, EWR and IAH i've probably missed a few... |
and what about Air Canada Ken? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif
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Thanks for the hub info. It hadn't yet occurred to me that that info might be useful. (Maybe it never would have.)
US cities weren't included because there are just too many, and it would overwhelm the list, making it less useful. Most major US carriers cover most of the US, but there are gaps. Some carriers (US) are primarily in the east, while others (AS) are primarily in the west, for example. One aspect that's important though, is what kind of equipment each carrier flies out of their Canadian cities, and perhaps more important, how many flight and to where from each Canadian city. Much as I like AA they are weak in this regard (at least from YVR.) From YVR they only have two flights a day, to DFW. So if you want to fly to BOS on AA metal, you'll have to fly YVR-DFW-BOS. (Good for accumulating miles, however.) Likewise, DL pretty much only offers CRJ service out of YVR for much of the year. You can get DL codeshares on NW metal, but then you're back to the "can I upgrade" question. More stuff to come. [This message has been edited by Ken hAAmer (edited Dec 23, 2003).] |
UA
Main Hubs ORD, LGA, IAD, SFO, DEN Mini Hubs MIA, LAX |
Once NW becomes a member of the DL/AF alliance, it will be a formidable option given links to AS in the west and service ex-YYZ and YUL as well as YEG, YYC, YVR and even YWG and YQR. MSP is a major gateway and the link with KLM and CO offer an array of FF benefits on numerous carriers. Not to mention, AmexPlat members have access to NW World Clubs and CO Presidents Clubs.
As always, the program of choice depends on one's travel patterns. For domestic travellers, AC is really the only game in town. Unless one foregoes programs altogether, fly WEST JET, and use any money saved, along with a credit card like AVION, the new DINERS, to the Scotia and TD Visas, to accumulate an alternative approach to "free" trips. [Design your own FF program. |
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Shareholder: fly WEST JET, and use any money saved, [Design your own FF program.</font> |
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">I find AC to be cheaper than WS 90% of the time. Not to mention the better schedule and lounge access.</font> WS can charge more than the "main line full service carrier" and yet their planes are still filling up and they are making money quarter after quarter. |
Come on KH, you know AC's overheads are far higher than WJ's not to mentioning operating costs on newer jets, younger staff, and far less infrastructure [res, maintenance, Aeroplan]. And my experience shows AC's flights are just as full on those routes it flies tail to tail with WJ.
The real issue is Canadians once more have a choice between two carriers on major domestic routes, each with a very different corporate/staff culture. Which is better, as you yourself point out in the whole theme of this discussion, depends upon what services one expects. |
My point was that it seems that people are willing to pay more for a WS flight, at least as inferred by the previous poster.
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Ken hAAmer: My point was that it seems that people are willing to pay more for a WS flight, at least as inferred by the previous poster.</font> |
I've found that WS always matches AC's prices, but they often sell out of their cheap seats much faster. (In which case, who cares whether they are matching if the seat is unavailable.) I don't know if this is because WS assigns fewer cheap seats, or people buy cheap WS seats faster.
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It's also worth considering which fares can be upgraded on different airlines. International upgrades using miles seem to be very restricted on NW/CO/DL (limited fares, hardly any availability) and much better on AA (better availability, upgrade from any fare if you pay a penalty in miles). If you don't have top-tier status, this is the only way to get an upgrade on an international flight.
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KH,What about Air Creebec...they fly to lots of places.
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I suspect WESTJET is now so ingrained on some people that they assume it offers the lowest fares, even if AC now matches and has more availability. Same way people thought for the final 6-months of its life that CP was no longer in business, so its flights went out mostly empty and check-in staff had little to do, while AC check-ins were swamped and flights were always full.
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Shareholder: Same way people thought for the final 6-months of its life that CP was no longer in business, so its flights went out mostly empty and check-in staff had little to do, while AC check-ins were swamped and flights were always full. </font> |
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Shareholder: I suspect WESTJET is now so ingrained on some people that they assume it offers the lowest fares, even if AC now matches and has more availability. </font> <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Shareholder: Same way people thought for the final 6-months of its life that CP was no longer in business, so its flights went out mostly empty and check-in staff had little to do, while AC check-ins were swamped and flights were always full.</font> |
Here's Northwest. Weak in Europe, non-existant in Africa, South America, and Australia, very strong in Asia, pretty good in the Caribbean and Mexico, and very good in Canada. Keep in mind that NW has very good reciprocal arrangements with KLM, so some of the gaps may not be as important as with other carriers.
NW Europe Paris Amsterdam London Rome Frankfurt Asia Singapore Bangkok Hong Kong Manila Taipei Shanghai Beijing Seoul Busan Osaka Nagoya Tokyo Saipan Rota Guam Dehli Mumbai Caribbean Liberia (CR) (S) Nassau (S) Grand Cayman (S) Montego Bay Puerto Plata (S) Punta Cana (S) San Juan (PR) Mexico Mexico City Cancun Puerto Vallarta (S) Ixtapa (S) Acapulco (S) Cozumel (S) Canada Vancouver Calgary Toronto Montreal Ottawa Quebec (S) Edmonton Saskatoon Winnipeg Regina Thunder Bay London |
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by parnel: That is true an well tested by yours truly many many times this past year.WS came in higher very often.</font> |
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by exAC: This is true. People believe that WS is cheaper, when they may not be.</font> -- By the way, Rome is a seasonal destination for Northwest. |
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by B767: And one airline is making money and the other is still losing buckets of money! </font> |
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by parnel: Were we talking about making money or fares charged?</font> Geez... I couple double our sales and increase our market share next year by dropping our selling price below our costs. Of course than we would find ourselves in bankruptcy court. Do you not find it ironic that if your experience is correct, that a LCC can and does charge more "for less" than a full service airline? Why are people prepared to pay more for less???? |
NW makes up for the lack of European and Mexico/Caribbean destinations by having codeshare/alliance agreements with KLM, Continental, Copa, and now Delta. Still weak in Australia, but strong pretty much everywhere else.
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by B767: Is there not a direct relationship between revenue/fares charged and profits???? Geez... I couple double our sales and increase our market share next year by dropping our selling price below our costs. Of course than we would find ourselves in bankruptcy court. Do you not find it ironic that if your experience is correct, that a LCC can and does charge more "for less" than a full service airline? Why are people prepared to pay more for less???? </font> My continued point being that the discussion was about fares not bottom line;of course I know the difference. Ac's bankruptcy was not due to the fares charged but a huge debt from the purchase of Canadian |
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by parnel: My continued point being that the discussion was about fares not bottom line;of course I know the difference. Ac's bankruptcy was not due to the fares charged but a huge debt from the purchase of Canadian</font> |
Here's CO. Sorry for the delay, but their "3 airlines in one" setup makes it more difficult to summarize their routes. (The 3 airlines are Continental, Continental Micronesia, and COPA.)
Even more than AA CO has a lock on Mexico, the Caribbean, and to a lesser degree South America. They have good but unusual connections to Asia though mostly Japan, And they are the only airline to fly to a lot of Pacific Ocean destinations. They also fly to Cairns, AU, again via Guam (and HNL.) Canada and Europe are strong, leaving Africa as the only hole in their otherwise overwhelming coverage (though the do fly to Tel Aviv.) So here goes... CO Canada Vancouver Calgary Edmonton Toronto Ottawa Montreal Quebec Halifax Europe Glasgow Shannon Dublin Manchester Birmingham London (LHR) London (LGW) Amsterdam Brussels Paris Geneva Lisbon Madrid Rome Milan Zurich Frankfurt Africa/Middle East Tel Aviv Asia Tokyo Hong Kong The following are via Guam Bali Manilla Taipei Fukuoka Okayama Osaka Nagoya Niigata Sendai Sapporo as well as also to Tokyo Hong Kong Australia Cairns (via Guam) South Pacific generally from HNL or Guam via HNL Guam Palau Yap Saipan Chuuk Pohnpei Kosrae Kwajelein Majuro South America Rio de Janeiro Sao Paulo Lima Guayaquil Quito Bogata Caracas Caribbean Port of Spain Bridgetown Antigua St Maarten St Thomas Aguadilla Aruba San Juan (PR) Santa Domingo Santiago Puerto Plata Kingston Montego Bay Grand Caymen Nassau Freeport Central America Belize Sand Pedro Sula Guatemala San Salvador Liberia San Jose (CR) Panama Managua Tegucigalpa Mexico Chihuahua Los Cabos Torreon Mazatlan Saltilo Monterry Puerto Vallarta Gualajara Manzanillo Ixtapa Acapulco Villahermosa Carmen Cozumel Cancun Merida Veracruz Mexico City Leon San Luis Potosi Tampico Aguascalientes Morelia |
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