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JD Power 2024: Mission Accomplished, rock bottom reached for PY and J

JD Power 2024: Mission Accomplished, rock bottom reached for PY and J

Old May 11, 2024, 9:26 am
  #31  
 
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Originally Posted by rankourabu
At what point in your opinion is one qualified enough to have an opinion?
At the risk of gatekeeping, I would encourage anyone to focus their comparisons on this topic on airlines they have actually flown.

For example, I am personally unqualified to opine on how AC stacks up against Saudia, LATAM or Scoot.

I can’t offer terribly qualified comparisons to Garuda or Royal Brunei, having flown each only twice.
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Old May 11, 2024, 9:35 am
  #32  
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Originally Posted by YOWgary
At the risk of gatekeeping, I would encourage anyone to focus their comparisons on this topic on airlines they have actually flown.
Agree (and I'll rank AC above Scoot)

But that's not the point of JD Power, its not meant to be a comparison. It's not meant to be Allegiant vs AC.

It's meant to be how satisfied I was after buying a ticket and flying an airline. That simple. When people pay little and Allegiant gets there them cheap and on time, they leave satisfied. When people pay a lot and AC strands them, they leave unsatisfied. The two experiences are not being ranked against each other but as an overall trend.

AC has trended downwards over several years. That has nothing to do with other airlines.
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Old May 11, 2024, 9:51 am
  #33  
 
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Originally Posted by rankourabu
But that's not the point of JD Power, its not meant to be a comparison. It's not meant to be Allegiant vs AC.
First of all, the last few posts have been in response to somebody specifically comparing AC to all the US majors.

Second - you started this thread, and “it’s not meant to be a comparison” is pretty hard to square against your headline “AC Rock Bottom”.

You’re certainly qualified to drive down this road, but, you know, pick a lane.
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Old May 11, 2024, 1:13 pm
  #34  
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Originally Posted by YOWgary
- DL/AA SDC policy is easier for upper-tier elites flying domestically, while AC's follows fare type regardless of market; for example, a 25K booked in Comfort doesn't pay a SDC fee on any route. I'd love to see AC follow Delta and waive this fee for 75/100K regardless of fare.
Yeah, I always find the SDC argument amusing.

UA tends to clear upgrades down to J2 at T-24. This zeroes out Z and P. You need the same fare class to SDC. So I have almost never been able to SDC a premium cabin fare on UA.

Whereas AC just needs positive space, and I have almost never not been able to SDC an AC flight when I wanted to.

I'm struggling to parse DL's policy if you don't have status, because it mentions "fare rules" and "Applicable Change Fee". Whereas AC's is always a flat fee based on your fare fare brand. DL does not allow changing your destination to a co-terminal. AC does.

AA doesn't allow routing changes (AC does, though has to be done through an agent).

I love that fact that on AC, I can always ensure my fare includes free SDC, and can confirm into positive space in the cabin. I vastly prefer AC's SDC policy to US airlines.

Originally Posted by rankourabu
Agree (and I'll rank AC above Scoot)

But that's not the point of JD Power, its not meant to be a comparison. It's not meant to be Allegiant vs AC.

It's meant to be how satisfied I was after buying a ticket and flying an airline. That simple. When people pay little and Allegiant gets there them cheap and on time, they leave satisfied. When people pay a lot and AC strands them, they leave unsatisfied. The two experiences are not being ranked against each other but as an overall trend.

AC has trended downwards over several years. That has nothing to do with other airlines.
But that's sort of my point. During the AC catering strike, if I'd flown SFO-YVR, I would have had cold sandwiches and snacks, and been extremely disappointed. If I fly UA SFO-YVR any time, I get ... cold sandwiches and snacks. And I wouldn't be "disappointed", because that's just how UA works. Though I guess I'm disappointed enough that I almost never fly UA on that route.

And it's all great to have a survey about "customer satisfaction", but you could have two identically priced flights on the same route on two different airlines that offer the exact same in flight service, and one satisfies you while the other doesn't... what's the point in ranking airlines against each other there?
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Old May 11, 2024, 2:23 pm
  #35  
 
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Originally Posted by YOWgary
Won't comment? You just finished calling AC "third-world ****" compared to an airline you never fly - and an airline you've flown once.

My point here continues to be that wide, blanket statements just... don't tell us very much. When you get into detailed discussion of "Delta does X better than AC", you make several valid points with which it's easy to agree.

...but a blanket "United is 1.2% better than American in Premium Economy" is just as meaningless as "Air Canada is trash compared to other airlines I've never flown".
When did I say that AC is **** compared to UA/AA/AS/DL specifically? My post was for a different elite program. You don't need to import my statement from other threads, apply it to this JD power thread, and take it out of context.
Even if I were to comment on UA, I don't have enough flying experience to point out specific pros/cons about the program. Did you want me to say generalized statements based on one flight? Contradictory if you are seeking specific criticisms.

Originally Posted by YOWgary
DL/AA SDC policy is easier for upper-tier elites flying domestically, while AC's follows fare type regardless of market; for example, a 25K booked in Comfort doesn't pay a SDC fee on any route. I'd love to see AC follow Delta and waive this fee for 75/100K regardless of fare.
Yes my Plat allowed me to waive SDC, and this is what a meant. Could have been more specific.

Originally Posted by YOWgary
If you're finding SQM easier to earn on Delta than on AC, I don't know what to suggest, considering Delta no longer uses mileage for status earning at all.
Yes, until recently. I had MQD waiver as non-US. That's why I ditched DL Plat.

Originally Posted by YOWgary
You're very convinced that there are much better business offerings all over the world than ANA and Emirates?
I meant ANA, Emirates, etc > AC. I don't know how that was read in this context but if there is a wording problem that's on me.

Long and short of it is when I need to spend so much time rectifying IT-based problems that other majors don't seem to have, then that's already a -figuratively- third world level for me. Eg. UA segments posted almost instantly on a recent codeshare and AC's legs are missing altogether. Based on thread topics it looks like IT problems are not new. But it's 2024.
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Old May 11, 2024, 3:42 pm
  #36  
 
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Originally Posted by dhcustom
When did I say that AC is **** compared to UA/AA/AS/DL specifically? My post was for a different elite program. You don't need to import my statement from other threads, apply it to this JD power thread, and take it out of context.
Your exact words were "Thinking about using the status match promo to move away from AC. AC is 3rd world ****", in a post about moving your flying in AC's home market over to Delta.

When somebody I don't know says something like "Anyone that has flown other airlines should know that AC is dirt compared to other NA non-budget airlines", I go look up the other forums they participate in, so that before I respond I know whether I'm talking to somebody who's on DL, UA, AA and B6 twice a week, or somebody who never sets foot aboard half the airlines they're comparing to.

Originally Posted by dhcustom
Even if I were to comment on UA, I don't have enough flying experience to point out specific pros/cons about the program. Did you want me to say generalized statements based on one flight?
I mean personally, I simply wouldn't say "A is dirt compared to B" if I didn't have any actual experience with B, but that's just me.

Originally Posted by dhcustom
Yes my Plat allowed me to waive SDC, and this is what a meant. Could have been more specific.
As I said above - several of your other comparisons to Delta were well-founded - for example on the greater prevalence of Comfort+.

Originally Posted by dhcustom
Yes, until recently. I had MQD waiver as non-US. That's why I ditched DL Plat.
Certainly a view common to many Delta elites that their loyalty program got suddenly and substantially worse in the last little while.

Originally Posted by dhcustom
Long and short of it is when I need to spend so much time rectifying IT-based problems that other majors don't seem to have, then that's already a -figuratively- third world level for me. Eg. UA segments posted almost instantly on a recent codeshare and AC's legs are missing altogether. Based on thread topics it looks like IT problems are not new. But it's 2024.
It's more specific than that - I will often fly something like YVR-YUL-YOW and see the first flight post up to a week before the second.

I don't think you're wrong about a lot of this - just came out swinging a bit wilder than might have been reasonable.
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Old May 12, 2024, 11:45 am
  #37  
 
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I’m struggling to understand the point of these surveys when airlines in general, and AC in particular, have made it abundantly clear that they don’t care a rat’s derrière what their customers think of their offering. They seem totally fixated on improving their load factor by cutting costs and thence fares. And there seems to be enough customers who are motivated by price alone to support this strategy, as opposed to attracting the ones who care about features other than price.
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Old May 12, 2024, 2:31 pm
  #38  
 
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Originally Posted by canadiancow
Yeah, I always find the SDC argument amusing.

UA tends to clear upgrades down to J2 at T-24. This zeroes out Z and P. You need the same fare class to SDC. So I have almost never been able to SDC a premium cabin fare on UA.
Whereas AC just needs positive space, and I have almost never not been able to SDC an AC flight when I wanted to.
I'm struggling to parse DL's policy if you don't have status, because it mentions "fare rules" and "Applicable Change Fee". Whereas AC's is always a flat fee based on your fare fare brand. DL does not allow changing your destination to a co-terminal. AC does.
AA doesn't allow routing changes (AC does, though has to be done through an agent).
I love that fact that on AC, I can always ensure my fare includes free SDC, and can confirm into positive space in the cabin. I vastly prefer AC's SDC policy to US airlines.

But that's sort of my point. During the AC catering strike, if I'd flown SFO-YVR, I would have had cold sandwiches and snacks, and been extremely disappointed. If I fly UA SFO-YVR any time, I get ... cold sandwiches and snacks. And I wouldn't be "disappointed", because that's just how UA works. Though I guess I'm disappointed enough that I almost never fly UA on that route.

And it's all great to have a survey about "customer satisfaction", but you could have two identically priced flights on the same route on two different airlines that offer the exact same in flight service, and one satisfies you while the other doesn't... what's the point in ranking airlines against each other there?
Not criticizing here, but your position (which I agree with) needs some context. Air Canada works for you because you have status. I think an important influencing factor for respondents was the perceived value proposition and their expectations. I agree, United passengers are not expecting much, but to that I add that they are also not paying for a premium service. Air Canada passengers are. On the YVR-SFO route (for mid June);
Economy roundtrip does not offer a meal. United base cost starts at $270, with direct flights $335-$395. Air Canada cost range is $374. for all flights (all direct)
Business roundtrip does not offer a meal on United. Air Canada offers a "meal". United cost starts at $670., with direct flights $702-1226. Air Canada cost range is $830-$1,890. for all flights (all direct).

Air Canada pax are more likely than not to experience poor OTP, a wait for baggage and an inconsistent cabin experience.The provision of a low quality "meal" that resembles a no name frozen entree doesn't offer much benefit for the higher AC air fare. People pay more, but expect something for that higher fare. Air Canada benefits from the Canadian consumer characteristic which is one of a reluctance to change. Unlike in the USA, Canadian consumers stay loyal to brands and hesitate when it comes to trying an alternative. Instead of trying the alternatives, Canadian consumers complain and blame everyone and anyone other than themselves for the culture of poor service.
You would be quite right to call me inconsistent because I am critical of the airline and embrace the JD Power trend indication, yet continue to fly AC. I fly AC because I am chasing MM status and will probably make an effort to reach SE mileage this year. My purchasing characteristic is very different than 95%+ of the people who will be on my flight next week. I could take an AA flight for half the cost of AC, but I have status with Air Canada and am chasing my MM dream so that one day I can sit behind you and give a goofy grin
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Old May 12, 2024, 2:47 pm
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Transpacificflyer
Not criticizing here, but your position (which I agree with) needs some context. Air Canada works for you because you have status.
Err, what?

Whether or not a flight has a meal has nothing to do with status. AC's SDC policy does not depend on status (though it does with most/all of the US airlines).

So no, status has nothing to do with why AC works for me.
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Old May 12, 2024, 5:22 pm
  #40  
 
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Originally Posted by Transpacificflyer
I think an important influencing factor for respondents was the perceived value proposition and their expectations.
Originally Posted by Transpacificflyer
Instead of trying the alternatives, Canadian consumers complain and blame everyone and anyone other than themselves for the culture of poor service.
I can’t figure out how to square these two ideas.

I think the first one is right on the money, which turns this whole survey into a question of how well each airline has done at managing or aligning expectations.

Doesn’t the second one suggest that Canadian customers are more likely to complain than Americans? And wouldn’t that have a particular effect on the ratings of airlines with primarily Canadian customers?
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Old May 12, 2024, 5:59 pm
  #41  
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Originally Posted by YOWgary
Doesn’t the second one suggest that Canadian customers are more likely to complain than Americans? And wouldn’t that have a particular effect on the ratings of airlines with primarily Canadian customers?
Westjet (which one could argue has Canadians as even a higher percentage of their pax) scored exaclty halfway between Delta and AC in Y, 50 points higher
So either people flying Westjet are more satisfied, or they just happen to fly the non-complaining brand of Canadians.
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Old May 12, 2024, 6:54 pm
  #42  
 
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Originally Posted by rankourabu
Westjet (which one could argue has Canadians as even a higher percentage of their pax) scored exaclty halfway between Delta and AC in Y, 50 points higher
So either people flying Westjet are more satisfied, or they just happen to fly the non-complaining brand of Canadians.
Or WestJet passengers expect less going in.

Could be any of the above, this survey doesn’t give us any way to tell.
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Old May 13, 2024, 5:55 pm
  #43  
 
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Last in almost all categories and I’m seeing pilots with “world class contract” lanyards. I guess I am old fashioned and think compensation should be rewarded for amazing achievements. But I know that’s not what unions think….I’m just tired of delay after delay after delay…mostly for no logical reason…yet back I go.
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Old May 13, 2024, 6:51 pm
  #44  
 
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Originally Posted by cruzcap
Last in almost all categories and I’m seeing pilots with “world class contract” lanyards. I guess I am old fashioned and think compensation should be rewarded for amazing achievements. But I know that’s not what unions think….I’m just tired of delay after delay after delay…mostly for no logical reason…yet back I go.
I don't think ACs problems are because they are still not a competitive employer for pilots, compare to the US3, despite the AC pilot union leadership saying otherwise.
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Old May 13, 2024, 7:12 pm
  #45  
 
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Originally Posted by cruzcap
Last in almost all categories and I’m seeing pilots with “world class contract” lanyards. I guess I am old fashioned and think compensation should be rewarded for amazing achievements. But I know that’s not what unions think….I’m just tired of delay after delay after delay…mostly for no logical reason…yet back I go.
Would you care to specify which aspect of AC’s underperformance is the fault of the pilots?

Or is this just “anything a union wants must be bad”?
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