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JD Power 2024: Mission Accomplished, rock bottom reached for PY and J

JD Power 2024: Mission Accomplished, rock bottom reached for PY and J

Old May 10, 2024, 9:40 am
  #16  
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I think the comment that if the best score is a C grade and the worst is a D says it all. Meh! (First World Problems other people would love to have).

I must admit that AC's offerings have declined in recent years while United's have gone up and I have had ok flights on Delta in front cabins but they are all meh! and mostly get me where I want to go safely and mostly haven't had missed connections etc. All suffer from one thing or another, especially on shorter flights. Being at the bottom of the middle of the pack means AC does need to try a lot harder. All need to clean up their lounge offerings/crowding, AC its soft product, UA its hard product etc.
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Old May 10, 2024, 10:05 am
  #17  
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Yeah, if the surveyed people flew multiple airlines, it might be valid.

AC's North American J catering is worse now than it was it in 2019.

UA doesn't even offer a hot meal on SFO-YVR, but they've always been sketchy on "short flights".

So if I only fly AC, I might say worse things about AC catering than someone who only flies UA. But if I only fly UA, I might be content.
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Old May 10, 2024, 12:02 pm
  #18  
 
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Per Cow, I don't think many people fly many airlines. But I think USians do more. And in Canada, its basically a national pasttime to hate on AC (and/or nationalistic sentiments towards Westjet).

My personal experience with UA J over the years is that I'd not spend so much as $50 more on it. And in the back, its entirely pointless to even know what type your in as the IFE is non-existent or at pay per view TV on recycled Game Gear screens. It isn't the only place I can get stroopwafel.

It for sure says something about the respondents that the musical chair carrier is in first place in any of the categories.
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Old May 10, 2024, 12:33 pm
  #19  
 
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I think it all comes down to expectations. And carriers like WN pretty much do what it says on the tin.

At least according to some of us, AC has a pattern of being either a) being consistently inconsistent, b) overpromising and underdelivering, or c) both of the above.
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Old May 10, 2024, 1:50 pm
  #20  
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In essence, outside of the pedantic world inside FT, they're all quite similar. Especially since DL One and UA Polaris have been rolled out.

We are more and more in the age of Free Agency. Pick you flights based on price schedule, your preferences of hard/soft product.
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Old May 10, 2024, 3:09 pm
  #21  
 
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I agree with people who are talking about OTP (terrible, esp internal flights to the east) forcing much longer layovers if you want to be sure of having enough time to reroute when something goes wrong, and lounges (everything other then the SS is generally very crowded, to the point of being unusable).
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Old May 10, 2024, 6:47 pm
  #22  
 
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Originally Posted by canadiancow
Yeah, if the surveyed people flew multiple airlines, it might be valid.
AC's North American J catering is worse now than it was it in 2019.
UA doesn't even offer a hot meal on SFO-YVR, but they've always been sketchy on "short flights".
So if I only fly AC, I might say worse things about AC catering than someone who only flies UA. But if I only fly UA, I might be content.
All valid points. I make no bones about my bias against United compared to AC so you won't find me disagreeing. The JD Power is not intended to be looked at as a stand alone assessment. Rather, it is intended to identify a customer perception trend and to validate other assessments and reviews. In that regard, it shows the general trend of a perceived deterioration in service throughout the industry. All of the airlines need to improve. My impression is that AC management figures that if all the airlines are playing around with the catering, no one will notice. Have you ever seen Air Canada offer a commitment to quality? For example, JAL has an initiative with an executive champion that emphasizes "delicious, healthy, and sustainable meals". Delta has its well respected Operational Performance Commitment that it started in 2015. it was the first airline to promise to deliver operational excellence. Air Canada has never ever told its customers that it takes operation performance seriously and that it will make an effort to improve.


Originally Posted by RangerNS
Per Cow, I don't think many people fly many airlines. But I think USians do more. And in Canada, its basically a national pasttime to hate on AC (and/or nationalistic sentiments towards Westjet).My personal experience with UA J over the years is that I'd not spend so much as $50 more on it. And in the back, its entirely pointless to even know what type your in as the IFE is non-existent or at pay per view TV on recycled Game Gear screens. It isn't the only place I can get stroopwafel.
It for sure says something about the respondents that the musical chair carrier is in first place in any of the categories.
Please remember that the Super Elites of this forum have a completely different flying experience than the typical AC passenger. The SEs have concierge service so they are usually well taken care of when there is a delay or an Irrop. The common business class passenger doesn't get the white glove service. The SEs who fly in Y have their perks like priority boarding, baggage and lounge access. They also have priority reservation access. Try reaching Air Canada when you are non status and in Y. I expect that the experience is equally positive for Delta high status flyers. I have not flown in economy on Air Canada, other than on a Dash, in at least 10 years. I don't mind flying economy on Asian domestic LCCs or even West Jet domestic because there is a consistency of service. I never know what I will get on my Air Canada flight. I wish the Air Canada executives were required to take multiple flights in all of the classes during the year so that they would understand the passenger experience. Delta executives do this.
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Old May 10, 2024, 7:31 pm
  #23  
 
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Originally Posted by Transpacificflyer
They also have priority reservation access. Try reaching Air Canada when you are non status and in Y. I expect that the experience is equally positive for Delta high status flyers.
Delta, United, AA and Alaska all have online-chat service options that generally connect you to help vastly quicker than you’ll get calling in to AC even as a lower-tier elite.

I’ve only spent an appreciable amount of time with Alaska’s, but it’s terrific, and has the side bonus of removing any misunderstanding due to background noise, accent or weak phone connection.
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Old May 10, 2024, 8:26 pm
  #24  
 
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Originally Posted by Transpacificflyer
All valid points. I make no bones about my bias against United compared to AC so you won't find me disagreeing. The JD Power is not intended to be looked at as a stand alone assessment. Rather, it is intended to identify a customer perception trend and to validate other assessments and reviews. In that regard, it shows the general trend of a perceived deterioration in service throughout the industry. All of the airlines need to improve. My impression is that AC management figures that if all the airlines are playing around with the catering, no one will notice. Have you ever seen Air Canada offer a commitment to quality? For example, JAL has an initiative with an executive champion that emphasizes "delicious, healthy, and sustainable meals". Delta has its well respected Operational Performance Commitment that it started in 2015. it was the first airline to promise to deliver operational excellence. Air Canada has never ever told its customers that it takes operation performance seriously and that it will make an effort to improve.




Please remember that the Super Elites of this forum have a completely different flying experience than the typical AC passenger. The SEs have concierge service so they are usually well taken care of when there is a delay or an Irrop. The common business class passenger doesn't get the white glove service. The SEs who fly in Y have their perks like priority boarding, baggage and lounge access. They also have priority reservation access. Try reaching Air Canada when you are non status and in Y. I expect that the experience is equally positive for Delta high status flyers. I have not flown in economy on Air Canada, other than on a Dash, in at least 10 years. I don't mind flying economy on Asian domestic LCCs or even West Jet domestic because there is a consistency of service. I never know what I will get on my Air Canada flight. I wish the Air Canada executives were required to take multiple flights in all of the classes during the year so that they would understand the passenger experience. Delta executives do this.
I am no status and aside from Aeroplan. I can get connected with an agent in 10 minutes or less in 8/10 times this year. ( 14 flight segments)
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Old May 10, 2024, 9:40 pm
  #25  
 
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Why is this news? Anyone that has flown other airlines should know that AC is dirt compared to other NA non-budget airlines. Difference between AC and AS/DL is heaven and earth. It's too bad AC has no incentive to improve its offerings with its market share and government coddling.

Only good thing AC has going is probably the elite program admittedly. Below AS but probably better than others.
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Old May 10, 2024, 10:25 pm
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Transpacificflyer
Please remember that the Super Elites of this forum have a completely different flying experience than the typical AC passenger. The SEs have concierge service so they are usually well taken care of when there is a delay or an Irrop.
If I'm interacting with a concierge, AC is getting an "I'm unhappy" email.

IMO, the concierge program is only useful because I can't solve my own problems through the app. Which means there was a problem.

I like AC because of their hard and soft product on my primary routes (SFO-YYZ/YVR/YYC), and their hard and soft product on the routes where they are one of the few airlines that offer service (SFO-Europe/Asia/etc. - NH does not fly SFO-Europe, LH does not fly SFO-Asia).

I am comparing them against the other North American airlines.

And I've had enough 4 hour flights (UA, DL) where I was offered "the choice of" either a cold plate (like AC serves on Rapidair) or a snack box (which, IMO, is completely unacceptable for a 4 hour flight at any time of day).

If you survey random customers, you will get FOTSGs comparing their most recent flight on airline X with their second most recent flight on airline X.

I'd be much more interested in a survey of frequent flyers whose primary loyalty is not to an airline that has a hub where they live. I know a lot of a local friends in SFO who don't like UA, but fly it purely due to schedule. UA is "better" than every other airline 95% of the time. As an AC guy, I'm also a *A guy. But I've flown more non-*A this year than *A.

This survey is preposterous. You cannot get any signal from asking a DL flyer what they think about DL, and comparing that to asking a UA flyer what they think about UA.
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Old May 10, 2024, 11:26 pm
  #27  
 
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Originally Posted by dhcustom
Why is this news? Anyone that has flown other airlines should know that AC is dirt compared to other NA non-budget airlines. Difference between AC and AS/DL is heaven and earth.
I don’t think anyone anywhere is arguing many areas in which AC outperforms Delta, though you may be right that the FFP could be a candidate on that count.

When you say AC is “dirt” (or “third world ****” in another post) compared to other NA non-budget airlines, I’m curious in which specific areas your experiences flying DL/UA/AA/B6/AS stick out most as areas in which AC lags behind all the others.

How do you rank your recent travel on DL/UA/AA as a comparison between those three? We’ve accepted DL as a given, but based on your experience, which factors are leading you to choose UA or AA over AC? Short haul or international?
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Old May 11, 2024, 3:45 am
  #28  
 
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Originally Posted by YOWgary
I don’t think anyone anywhere is arguing many areas in which AC outperforms Delta, though you may be right that the FFP could be a candidate on that count.

When you say AC is “dirt” (or “third world ****” in another post) compared to other NA non-budget airlines, I’m curious in which specific areas your experiences flying DL/UA/AA/B6/AS stick out most as areas in which AC lags behind all the others.

How do you rank your recent travel on DL/UA/AA as a comparison between those three? We’ve accepted DL as a given, but based on your experience, which factors are leading you to choose UA or AA over AC? Short haul or international?
I don't fly AA. Flew UA for first time a few weeks ago so I won't comment due to sample size. I had 75K equivalent on AS/DL so factor that into my list. Lots of western Canada short hauls and transcons:

- Knowledgeable AS/DL phone lines and extremely swift resolutions. Hardly had to wait even during pandemic.
- Need to call a separate line for Aeroplan related problems.
- No bugs with online wallet systems. Need to call in/write if money is not deposited in AC wallet. AC app is bad generally.
- AC segments go missing. Need to call in/write. Don't understand why these things aren't handled proactively
- Very limited SDC privileges from AC; very flexible, generous, and easy from AS/DL.
- Need to call in to cancel AC flights last minute (can't do it online < 2 hrs).
- Short hauls that actually have preferred seats. Only diff for AC is that you are at the front.
- Cancellation fees that would not exist but for competition. I get hit with GST on "cancellation service charge" or whatever it's called.
- Forced by buy Flex for 100% SQM (unless you don't care for this I guess). "Standard" is really misleading. This makes flights more difficult to search and compare on Google Flights. My general expectation is that a "standard / Main / nonbudget" fares should equal 100% SQM.
- Duopoly pricing in Canada. Maybe this is a country thing rather than an airline thing.
- Constantly delayed flights.
- Constantly late bags.
- AS/DL serve edible food. Can't tell the difference between AC econ/PE/biz food except the plating (at least from my experience).
- Sloppy and apathetic handling of APPR issues on top of constant delays and cancellations. A lot of time is wasted b/c AC's go to move is to deny compensation requests. WS is so much better on this . Some of my claims are approaching 2 years old and may become barred for legal action in some provinces like BC.
- AC not proactive on service related issues eg. Gate Gourmet strikes. Do I really have to justify/beg that I need compensation for no food on business flights?
- Lounges are much nicer. Overcrowding is a general issue and not pertinent to AC.
- Non-econ hard products are much better eg. Ragged and old bedding is not used in lie-flat biz
- You may or may not be able to predict if you are going to get eupgraded based on the Seat Map which is not accurate in the first place so why have this map in the first place?
- I get thrown into odd situations in IRROPS once in a while. Got told that I need to retrieve and check-in my luggage again once at YYZ for a new domestic flight. Even I knew that this would be impossible. Shows lack of knowledge from the ground crew
- Another IT issue: can't connect to AC wifi sometimes.
- I don't understand things like having to activate AC Wifi benefits on a flight and sometimes you may not be able to do it b/c you can't even log in.

Generally feels like AC is years behind what should be the "standard" for airline operations. Ac wallet just came into play last year. AC feels plagued with IT issues. I do not feel an urgency to provide good service from AC.

Oh and I can't wait to try these so called so called top ranked business flights from Lufthansa, ANA, Emirates, so forth. I'm still newer at this game, but I'm very convinced that there are much better offerings from other airlines from all over the world. I'm very disappointed in Canada's de facto monopoly/duopoly airline given the market share in a lot of aspects and the problems seem to stem from general apathy. It's not like AC is broke or anything. AC does have some decent things like being able to stay at the 75K level to share elite benefits (other airlines such as AS needs 100K) and the AC Cafe, but there are too many problems that make my flight experience overly burdensome.
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Last edited by dhcustom; May 11, 2024 at 4:02 am
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Old May 11, 2024, 6:29 am
  #29  
 
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Originally Posted by dhcustom
I don't fly AA. Flew UA for first time a few weeks ago so I won't comment due to sample size.
Won't comment? You just finished calling AC "third-world ****" compared to an airline you never fly - and an airline you've flown once.

My point here continues to be that wide, blanket statements just... don't tell us very much. When you get into detailed discussion of "Delta does X better than AC", you make several valid points with which it's easy to agree.

...but a blanket "United is 1.2% better than American in Premium Economy" is just as meaningless as "Air Canada is trash compared to other airlines I've never flown".

Originally Posted by dhcustom
I had 75K equivalent on AS/DL so factor that into my list.
I don't understand - you were 75K equivalent on both AS and DL? Or first one, then the other? I know AS does a very generous status-match program, or did you decide to walk away from one of those two at some point in favour of the other?

As for your list - I don't think many around here disagree that AC's IT systems are generally a shambles, we can probably call that one agreed across the board. A few others that stuck out for me:

- Delta's CRJs and E75s have a couple more rows of preferred seats. Fair criticism, I'd like that too.

- DL/AA SDC policy is easier for upper-tier elites flying domestically, while AC's follows fare type regardless of market; for example, a 25K booked in Comfort doesn't pay a SDC fee on any route. I'd love to see AC follow Delta and waive this fee for 75/100K regardless of fare.

- If you're finding SQM easier to earn on Delta than on AC, I don't know what to suggest, considering Delta no longer uses mileage for status earning at all.

- If you "can't tell the difference" between business class and economy food... are you referring to long-haul service, short-haul? Doesn't even matter which airline you're talking about, these are wildly different products.

- Delta recently reduced its lounge crowding by drastically cutting back / cutting off lounge access for thousands of customers. I don't think you'd find much opposition to a similar move around here. On lounge quality, I've been in several of both in the last 6-12 months and I argue that the best MLLs (especially the Internationals) are better than the best SkyClubs, but Delta's main-hub domestic Skyclubs are certainly nicer than YYZ/YVR/YUL Dom.

Originally Posted by dhcustom
Oh and I can't wait to try these so called so called top ranked business flights from Lufthansa, ANA, Emirates, so forth. I'm still newer at this game, but I'm very convinced that there are much better offerings from other airlines from all over the world.
You're very convinced that there are much better business offerings all over the world than ANA and Emirates?
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Last edited by YOWgary; May 11, 2024 at 6:36 am
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Old May 11, 2024, 9:23 am
  #30  
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Originally Posted by YOWgary
Won't comment? You just finished calling AC "third-world ****" compared to an airline you never fly - and an airline you've flown once

...but a blanket "United is 1.2% better than American in Premium Economy" is just as meaningless as "Air Canada is trash compared to other airlines I've never flown".
At what point in your opinion is one qualified enough to have an opinion?

I have 120+ airlines, 50+ of them 5x or more, across all 4 classes of service. Have had status with ~15 programs (including AC), and still consider AC to be in the bottom quarter of overall satisfaction. Although I agree with you calling AC third world is nonsense.

I m very satisfied with my Aeroplan experience over the years and would score it highly on any survey due to low cost of point acquisition and high redemption value.
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