No answers, no explanations for B.C. couple escorted off Montreal plane
Jun 22, 2022, 3:09 pm
#47
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But perhaps the captain, who has the last word, overdid it, and dded an extra row because there were some of them in that row, or he made a mistake. Taking into account that there would be a bunch of people who might miss their connection etc., perhaps it is understandable that he decided to be conservative and overdid it somewhat.
Yesterday, we heard from someone who was on a YYZ-FRA flight (earlier one) that the plane went back to the gate and that an older lady was removed from the plane.
We had a similar experience a few weeks ago on a FRA-YYC flight.
Anyway, until hearing the side of the crew, I am willing to give AC the benefit of the doubt at this point. We all know that lately the issue of passengers misbehaving has been left and centre. Unfortunately many folks don't seem to be aware/understand that crews have the authority to give them orders. And that serious incidents including cases when an unplanned rerouting to get rid of issue people, is a major hassle for well-behaved passengers.
Jun 22, 2022, 3:12 pm
#48
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC SE MM, Bonvoy Plat, Hilton G,Nexus, Amex MR Plat,IHG Plat
Posts: 4,422
Some interesting snippets. Bolding mine.
Other passengers thrown off the plane allegedly included a pregnant woman, a couple with two children, at least three members of the Williams Racing Formula 1 team and the doctor for the Aston Martin team who had been in Montreal for the Grand Prix over the weekend.
Meanwhile their luggage which was already loaded on the plane was flown to Heathrow without them, and is still stuck in the logjam of bags waiting for collection at Terminal 2.The couple from Hertfordshire were initially told that Air Canada was not responsible for them and that they could not get on another of the airline’s flights for at least 24 hours.
Air Canada today appeared to admit that Mr and Mrs Brailey may have been thrown off the plane by mistake.
A statement released by the airline said: ‘We are currently investigating the circumstances surrounding this incident involving a group of 25 customers who were removed from our flight from Montreal to London Monday night, due to disruptive behaviour.
‘We understand that there are allegations that in the course of removing these passengers, certain unrelated individuals were deplaned as well.
Some of these deplaned customers were rebooked this morning and are on their way to their final destination. Once our investigation is completed, we will follow up with the customers.’
‘I was asking what it was all about and if I could speak to the Captain, but I was told that I would find out later. It was a nightmare scenario.
‘It was utterly bizarre because there was no noise or aggravation on the flight. As far as I could tell everyone was behaving properly, and we certainly were.
Formula 1 journalist Phillip Horton who was on the flight tweeted: ‘Yep, it made no sense. Passenger next to me from an F1 team was removed. They had been compliant, sober, quiet the whole time. Cabin crew had a list of seat numbers and just took people off.’
I wonder who made the 30 person list ?
I sense a Mea Culpa from our favorite airline without actually fessing up. Maybe a sneaky 'inadvertent mistakes were made', 'stressful situation', 'deplaned customers have been rebooked'. No sorry off course. I should do PR for AC :-).
I specially like the term deplaned. Like they left on their own ? Should the proper term be 'ejected from the plane' or 'denied boarding/passage' ?
Other passengers thrown off the plane allegedly included a pregnant woman, a couple with two children, at least three members of the Williams Racing Formula 1 team and the doctor for the Aston Martin team who had been in Montreal for the Grand Prix over the weekend.
Meanwhile their luggage which was already loaded on the plane was flown to Heathrow without them, and is still stuck in the logjam of bags waiting for collection at Terminal 2.The couple from Hertfordshire were initially told that Air Canada was not responsible for them and that they could not get on another of the airline’s flights for at least 24 hours.
One of their sons spent £1,300 on booking an alternative flight home for them on another airline which was due to leave on Tuesday night.
But Air Canada had a change of heart yesterday and put them on one of its flights to New York, and a connecting United Airlines flight to Heathrow.Air Canada today appeared to admit that Mr and Mrs Brailey may have been thrown off the plane by mistake.
A statement released by the airline said: ‘We are currently investigating the circumstances surrounding this incident involving a group of 25 customers who were removed from our flight from Montreal to London Monday night, due to disruptive behaviour.
‘We understand that there are allegations that in the course of removing these passengers, certain unrelated individuals were deplaned as well.
Some of these deplaned customers were rebooked this morning and are on their way to their final destination. Once our investigation is completed, we will follow up with the customers.’
‘I was asking what it was all about and if I could speak to the Captain, but I was told that I would find out later. It was a nightmare scenario.
‘It was utterly bizarre because there was no noise or aggravation on the flight. As far as I could tell everyone was behaving properly, and we certainly were.
Formula 1 journalist Phillip Horton who was on the flight tweeted: ‘Yep, it made no sense. Passenger next to me from an F1 team was removed. They had been compliant, sober, quiet the whole time. Cabin crew had a list of seat numbers and just took people off.’
I wonder who made the 30 person list ?
I sense a Mea Culpa from our favorite airline without actually fessing up. Maybe a sneaky 'inadvertent mistakes were made', 'stressful situation', 'deplaned customers have been rebooked'. No sorry off course. I should do PR for AC :-).
I specially like the term deplaned. Like they left on their own ? Should the proper term be 'ejected from the plane' or 'denied boarding/passage' ?
Jun 22, 2022, 3:38 pm
#49
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Upstate NY or FL or inbetween
Programs: US former CP Looking for a new airline to love me
Posts: 1,674
... But perhaps the captain, who has the last word, overdid it, and dded an extra row because there were some of them in that row, or he made a mistake. Taking into account that there would be a bunch of people who might miss their connection etc., perhaps it is understandable that he decided to be conservative and overdid it somewhat.....
.
Sounds like the old
Vietnam refrain: "In order to save the village we had to burn it"
Jun 22, 2022, 3:41 pm
#50
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: YYZ
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Posts: 4,422
I doubt that. My suspicion is that that group was actually the problem. Groups tend to behave like mobs and the crew may have been under the perception that they might not have been able to handle them later during the flight. Especially rowdy Brits, I suppose. :-)
But perhaps the captain, who has the last word, overdid it, and dded an extra row because there were some of them in that row, or he made a mistake. Taking into account that there would be a bunch of people who might miss their connection etc., perhaps it is understandable that he decided to be conservative and overdid it somewhat.
Yesterday, we heard from someone who was on a YYZ-FRA flight (earlier one) that the plane went back to the gate and that an older lady was removed from the plane.
We had a similar experience a few weeks ago on a FRA-YYC flight.
Anyway, until hearing the side of the crew, I am willing to give AC the benefit of the doubt at this point. We all know that lately the issue of passengers misbehaving has been left and centre. Unfortunately many folks don't seem to be aware/understand that crews have the authority to give them orders. And that serious incidents including cases when an unplanned rerouting to get rid of issue people, is a major hassle for well-behaved passengers.
But perhaps the captain, who has the last word, overdid it, and dded an extra row because there were some of them in that row, or he made a mistake. Taking into account that there would be a bunch of people who might miss their connection etc., perhaps it is understandable that he decided to be conservative and overdid it somewhat.
Yesterday, we heard from someone who was on a YYZ-FRA flight (earlier one) that the plane went back to the gate and that an older lady was removed from the plane.
We had a similar experience a few weeks ago on a FRA-YYC flight.
Anyway, until hearing the side of the crew, I am willing to give AC the benefit of the doubt at this point. We all know that lately the issue of passengers misbehaving has been left and centre. Unfortunately many folks don't seem to be aware/understand that crews have the authority to give them orders. And that serious incidents including cases when an unplanned rerouting to get rid of issue people, is a major hassle for well-behaved passengers.
Too many random people got tossed to be given much benefit of doubt.
A Doctor on another F1 team. Some from Motorsport magazine. Elderly couple who were not affiliated with F1. Pregnant woman.
But perhaps the captain, who has the last word, overdid it, and dded an extra row because there were some of them in that row, or he made a mistake. Taking into account that there would be a bunch of people who might miss their connection etc., perhaps it is understandable that he decided to be conservative and overdid it somewhat.
Punishing innocent people (pending more details) is not acceptable nor is collective punishment. They were not even all sitting together. None of us would like to be tossed from a plane for sitting next to someone who may deserve it.
And the possible reasons - drinking, not mask wearing, possible theft of food vouchers.
Possibly some needed to be tossed and that's the benefit of doubt to the crew. But so many people that had nothing to do with anything ?
I almost feel that a 30 person list required some work. Perhaps even the pilot needs some training for signing off on ejecting 30 pax without checking. And where was Sr AC Station Mgmt ?
I would like AC to do better. I have had some great AC flight crew recently and incidents like this tarnish the work they do.
Last edited by vernonc; Jun 22, 2022 at 3:46 pm
Jun 22, 2022, 3:44 pm
#51
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Some interesting snippets. Bolding mine.
...
Air Canada today appeared to admit that Mr and Mrs Brailey may have been thrown off the plane by mistake.
...
‘We understand that there are allegations that in the course of removing these passengers, certain unrelated individuals were deplaned as well.
...
Formula 1 journalist Phillip Horton who was on the flight tweeted: ‘Yep, it made no sense. Passenger next to me from an F1 team was removed. They had been compliant, sober, quiet the whole time. Cabin crew had a list of seat numbers and just took people off.’
...
...
Air Canada today appeared to admit that Mr and Mrs Brailey may have been thrown off the plane by mistake.
...
‘We understand that there are allegations that in the course of removing these passengers, certain unrelated individuals were deplaned as well.
...
Formula 1 journalist Phillip Horton who was on the flight tweeted: ‘Yep, it made no sense. Passenger next to me from an F1 team was removed. They had been compliant, sober, quiet the whole time. Cabin crew had a list of seat numbers and just took people off.’
...
Jun 22, 2022, 4:17 pm
#52
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: YYZ
Posts: 6,138
I doubt that. My suspicion is that that group was actually the problem. Groups tend to behave like mobs and the crew may have been under the perception that they might not have been able to handle them later during the flight. Especially rowdy Brits, I suppose. :-)
But perhaps the captain, who has the last word, overdid it, and dded an extra row because there were some of them in that row, or he made a mistake. Taking into account that there would be a bunch of people who might miss their connection etc., perhaps it is understandable that he decided to be conservative and overdid it somewhat.
Yesterday, we heard from someone who was on a YYZ-FRA flight (earlier one) that the plane went back to the gate and that an older lady was removed from the plane.
We had a similar experience a few weeks ago on a FRA-YYC flight.
Anyway, until hearing the side of the crew, I am willing to give AC the benefit of the doubt at this point. We all know that lately the issue of passengers misbehaving has been left and centre. Unfortunately many folks don't seem to be aware/understand that crews have the authority to give them orders. And that serious incidents including cases when an unplanned rerouting to get rid of issue people, is a major hassle for well-behaved passengers.
But perhaps the captain, who has the last word, overdid it, and dded an extra row because there were some of them in that row, or he made a mistake. Taking into account that there would be a bunch of people who might miss their connection etc., perhaps it is understandable that he decided to be conservative and overdid it somewhat.
Yesterday, we heard from someone who was on a YYZ-FRA flight (earlier one) that the plane went back to the gate and that an older lady was removed from the plane.
We had a similar experience a few weeks ago on a FRA-YYC flight.
Anyway, until hearing the side of the crew, I am willing to give AC the benefit of the doubt at this point. We all know that lately the issue of passengers misbehaving has been left and centre. Unfortunately many folks don't seem to be aware/understand that crews have the authority to give them orders. And that serious incidents including cases when an unplanned rerouting to get rid of issue people, is a major hassle for well-behaved passengers.
Jun 22, 2022, 4:26 pm
#53
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Upstate NY or FL or inbetween
Programs: US former CP Looking for a new airline to love me
Posts: 1,674
I for sure normally give the crew the benefit of doubt. But they seem to have overdid it ?
Too many random people got tossed to be given much benefit of doubt.
A Doctor on another F1 team. Some from Motorsport magazine. Elderly couple who were not affiliated with F1. Pregnant woman.
But perhaps the captain, who has the last word, overdid it, and dded an extra row because there were some of them in that row, or he made a mistake. Taking into account that there would be a bunch of people who might miss their connection etc., perhaps it is understandable that he decided to be conservative and overdid it somewhat.
Punishing innocent people (pending more details) is not acceptable nor is collective punishment. They were not even all sitting together. None of us would like to be tossed from a plane for sitting next to someone who may deserve it.
And the possible reasons - drinking, not mask wearing, possible theft of food vouchers.
Possibly some needed to be tossed and that's the benefit of doubt to the crew. But so many people that had nothing to do with anything ?
I almost feel that a 30 person list required some work. Perhaps even the pilot needs some training for signing off on ejecting 30 pax without checking. And where was Sr AC Station Mgmt ?
I would like AC to do better. I have had some great AC flight crew recently and incidents like this tarnish the work they do.
Too many random people got tossed to be given much benefit of doubt.
A Doctor on another F1 team. Some from Motorsport magazine. Elderly couple who were not affiliated with F1. Pregnant woman.
But perhaps the captain, who has the last word, overdid it, and dded an extra row because there were some of them in that row, or he made a mistake. Taking into account that there would be a bunch of people who might miss their connection etc., perhaps it is understandable that he decided to be conservative and overdid it somewhat.
Punishing innocent people (pending more details) is not acceptable nor is collective punishment. They were not even all sitting together. None of us would like to be tossed from a plane for sitting next to someone who may deserve it.
And the possible reasons - drinking, not mask wearing, possible theft of food vouchers.
Possibly some needed to be tossed and that's the benefit of doubt to the crew. But so many people that had nothing to do with anything ?
I almost feel that a 30 person list required some work. Perhaps even the pilot needs some training for signing off on ejecting 30 pax without checking. And where was Sr AC Station Mgmt ?
I would like AC to do better. I have had some great AC flight crew recently and incidents like this tarnish the work they do.
Jun 22, 2022, 4:26 pm
#54
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One of the comments in the DM alleged that one of the deplaned passenger was an AC employee. Has anyone heard any details on this?
Jun 22, 2022, 4:30 pm
#55
Join Date: Nov 2010
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If I had to guess, the SD told the captain that various passengers were part of a group and being noncompliant or threatening or drunken, and the captain said, "Okay, kick the off."
I'd really like to hear from the SD (or the FA that decided who was "bad"). Not that we ever will. But, without knowing the details, I would not be shocked if that crewmember were behaving emotionally or irrationally in response to some perceived misconduct or slight. I realize that most of the time, the passenger is the party at fault when the passenger and a crew member have an argument. And that percentage rises greatly when a passenger gets kicked off a plane. But, based on the reports and tweets cited in this thread, it's hard to imagine than 25+ unrelated passengers were all at fault.
I'd really like to hear from the SD (or the FA that decided who was "bad"). Not that we ever will. But, without knowing the details, I would not be shocked if that crewmember were behaving emotionally or irrationally in response to some perceived misconduct or slight. I realize that most of the time, the passenger is the party at fault when the passenger and a crew member have an argument. And that percentage rises greatly when a passenger gets kicked off a plane. But, based on the reports and tweets cited in this thread, it's hard to imagine than 25+ unrelated passengers were all at fault.
Jun 22, 2022, 5:22 pm
#56
Join Date: Sep 2014
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Simsam, Oshawa, Canada, 2 hours ago
There was a desdheading crew member thrown off too I know , I am crew and Yammer the AC employee chat is buzzing. The plane was overweight with baggage. Innocent people thrown off so these monsters can save money on fuel. No onr was drunk or nit masked.
There was a desdheading crew member thrown off too I know , I am crew and Yammer the AC employee chat is buzzing. The plane was overweight with baggage. Innocent people thrown off so these monsters can save money on fuel. No onr was drunk or nit masked.
If it was covid theatre related, that's too bad, and while I understand that one agrees to the rules, this jackbootery still rubs me the wrong way.
Another DM comment went the Quebec-blaming route, but then the comment section of that paper rivals the articles. My best AC experience was a QC-based crew. A bit off-topic: I messaged AC on Twitter commending the crew and one FA in particular, providing flight no., his name & cabin. They said they would forward it on. Any idea if the FA or anyone in a position to acknowledge or reward him would have actually seen my note?
Last edited by bambinomartino; Jun 22, 2022 at 5:31 pm
Jun 22, 2022, 6:02 pm
#57
Join Date: Aug 2012
Programs: ba silver
Posts: 729
What a disgrace for the airline. Are they not legally required to tell you why you are being denied transportation before removing you? I hope the passengers that did not do anything wrong get substantial compensation ( ideally directly out of the captain's pocket).
Two laws need to change: passengers should be allowed to sue airline employees who make wrong decisions and law enforcement should not get involved in removing passengers unless they feel removal is warranted for criminal charges. Passengers who have paid for the right to be on the plane and refuse to leave should be immune from protection unless there it's proven that they did something that warrants removal. Airlines are already banned from removing passengers in oversell situations
If the pilot does not want someone on their employer's plane ( for no valid reason) than let them deal with it.
Two laws need to change: passengers should be allowed to sue airline employees who make wrong decisions and law enforcement should not get involved in removing passengers unless they feel removal is warranted for criminal charges. Passengers who have paid for the right to be on the plane and refuse to leave should be immune from protection unless there it's proven that they did something that warrants removal. Airlines are already banned from removing passengers in oversell situations
If the pilot does not want someone on their employer's plane ( for no valid reason) than let them deal with it.
Jun 22, 2022, 6:54 pm
#58
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 63
my 2 cents (thimble of gas) is it seems the FA made a list of non-compliant pax and anyone connected to them by being on the same booking got ejected. The most likely reason for this to happen being non-compliance with covid measures i.e. "were all going to the UK where mask's aren't needed why would we all wear masks for a 7 hour flight just to take them off as soon as we get off the plane"
Seems like a lot of people were event staff for F1 but my only source of info is this thread and I am usually wrong
As for these 'random' pax being ejected i believe they were compliant with the issue but unfortunately connected to the offenders in some way. I'm picturing 8 strangers on the same booking and 1 bad apple spoiling the whole bunch
Seems like a lot of people were event staff for F1 but my only source of info is this thread and I am usually wrong
As for these 'random' pax being ejected i believe they were compliant with the issue but unfortunately connected to the offenders in some way. I'm picturing 8 strangers on the same booking and 1 bad apple spoiling the whole bunch
Jun 22, 2022, 7:01 pm
#59
Join Date: Aug 2012
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my 2 cents (thimble of gas) is it seems the FA made a list of non-compliant pax and anyone connected to them by being on the same booking got ejected. The most likely reason for this to happen being non-compliance with covid measures i.e. "were all going to the UK where mask's aren't needed why would we all wear masks for a 7 hour flight just to take them off as soon as we get off the plane"
Seems like a lot of people were event staff for F1 but my only source of info is this thread and I am usually wrong
As for these 'random' pax being ejected i believe they were compliant with the issue but unfortunately connected to the offenders in some way. I'm picturing 8 strangers on the same booking and 1 bad apple spoiling the whole bunch
Seems like a lot of people were event staff for F1 but my only source of info is this thread and I am usually wrong
As for these 'random' pax being ejected i believe they were compliant with the issue but unfortunately connected to the offenders in some way. I'm picturing 8 strangers on the same booking and 1 bad apple spoiling the whole bunch
They were removed and were not told why. If they truly did nothing wrong then they should be entitled to sue the employee who made the decision as well as Air Canada. The AC COC allows removal off disruptive passengers, not random passengers who were perceived as disruptive.
Airlines are legally required to provide a reason for removal, also under Canadian law AC was legally required to rebook on the next available flight or on any airline after six hours.
Jun 22, 2022, 7:09 pm
#60
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 63
There was a couple from Ottawa who had nothing to do with this group.
They were removed and were not told why. If they truly did nothing wrong then they should be entitled to sue the employee who made the decision as well as Air Canada. The AC COC allows removal off disruptive passengers, not random passengers who were perceived as disruptive.
Airlines are legally required to provide a reason for removal, also under Canadian law AC was legally required to rebook on the next available flight or on any airline after six hours.
They were removed and were not told why. If they truly did nothing wrong then they should be entitled to sue the employee who made the decision as well as Air Canada. The AC COC allows removal off disruptive passengers, not random passengers who were perceived as disruptive.
Airlines are legally required to provide a reason for removal, also under Canadian law AC was legally required to rebook on the next available flight or on any airline after six hours.