Aselwyn

ya they even got 2 more A330's at the start of the year from Singapore airlines

entropy

Air Canada mainline is almost Rogue-ish anyway. They started w/o J, now they have J (domestic). And they're out of longhaul now. The widebodies in Y are lousy, especially the 777s.

As far as I know they dumped the 763's - but IMHO those were the only decent planes they operated - in terms of seat comfort- , despite being old.

Given the canadian government's disastrous handling of COVID and the related draconian border restrictions, AC is in much worse shape relative to their US competitors.

EdmFlyBoi

And this comment is based on? Second quarter financials have not been released and United just announced a return to profitability. AC was in very good shape prior to COVID. I suspect they will return back to that place, much like Delta and United.

Adam Smith

Re the rouge 763s: incredibly uncomfortable in J/PY. Seats are narrow with terrible padding and bad support.
AC also said it was retiring all 319s, but 14 months later, they still have a few at mainline/Jetz plus all the rouge ones.

If it makes sense for rouge to fly widebodies, I'm sure they will, whether that's reactivating some 763s or procuring something else.

They've said they're going to get rid of them, but they still own or lease a bunch of them. Details in this thread: Air Canada Master Fleet Changes Thread

AC entered the crisis with a far stronger balance sheet than any of the US3. Recovery is happening slower here because the US was ahead on vaccinations and re-opening. But things are picking up here now too. AC is adding flights back to the schedule and calling back furloughed staff. They liked rouge before the pandemic, and there's a decent chance that it will continue to play a part in AC's future.

entropy

far stronger? that must be why they were withholding refunds until the government bailed them out.. ,but they are also sitting here with a (interminably) "closed" border -- if the Canadian gov't doesn't seriously relax their border controls, there will be no need for family trips on Rogue.. Who is going to take their kids on vacation if they have to quarantine them at home for 2 weeks after? I hope they change that soon (and/or approve vax for <12s), but who knows.

The whole airline is Roguish now anyways. there is no need for a separate 'brand', it was (after the first few months) overpriced, and substandard , the same as mainline AC Y.

YOWgary

Happened day before yesterday, and that's the point at which I and many members of this board became Air Canada transborder passengers again. I haven't personally booked a Rouge flight yet, but the obstacle keeping me off the Rouge routes I flew in the Before Times has now been removed.


Even this part is becoming more and more predictable by the day, even down to forecasting demand for family Rouge travel outside Canada.

Given that Pfizer now says they're going to be ready to immunize kids as young as 6 months starting this fall, parents can feel fairly confident in booking that spring-break Rouge flight to an all-inclusive in Cancun.

vojsko

Miss the YYZ-PRG connections dearly. Any news of it coming back?

ChrisA330

Wide body operations will no longer be a part of rouge. Unless PRG moves to mainline (unlikely IMO), Canada-PRG will be serviced via connections at *A’s European hubs.

Adam Smith

I would be careful about making such definitive statements. AC still owns or is on lease for a bunch of 763s, and it's certainly not impossible that they decide to put those back in to service for a reduced rouge widebody fleet.

For instance, they already seem to have walked back on the retirement of all of the 319s that was announced last year (mainline ones have been going, but no reductions have been disclosed on the rouge ones).

talkeryxu

Am I understanding this thread correctly that the Rouge 2-2-2 configuration in PY has been relegated to the dustbin of history where it belongs?

Adam Smith

A lot of people think so, but as I've pointed out in the post immediately above yours, that's not necessarily the case.

ChrisA330

My comments are from remarks Mike Rousseau has said in multiple quarterly analyst calls, including the most recent one.

yyztozag

Well, ZAG is coming back next summer, so I really don’t see why PRG isn’t in the schedule too. Maybe 2023? I highly doubt they’d permanently can it.

Adam Smith

Yes, I'm aware, and I'm not saying the rouge widebodies will come back. My point is simply that things can change, and as long as AC still has a bunch of 763s on the books*, they can change pretty quickly. There's a reason why comments are typically phrased like "We see no reason at this point in time to change that strategy or change that direction, full stop" (comment from Rousseau on the Q2 conference call, emphasis mine). That's what the page-long disclaimer in the MD&A about "Caution Regarding Forward-Looking Information" is for.

I don't think it's likely that we see rouge flying widebodies before 2023, if ever - they're probably fairly committed to getting rid of the 763s (and it's possible that they've made deals to offload more of them that haven't been publicly reflected in the sources that avgeeks have access to), and if they decide to reverse course in 2022, it will take some time to secure new aircraft and bring them in to the fleet. But I also can't predict the future. No one saw COVID coming, obviously. Demand has bounced back quicker than airlines were anticipated this summer. No one foresaw the MAX grounding in 2019, which drove AC to keep 763s in service longer than previously planned. And so on.

As someone who thinks the J/PY product on the rouge 763s is horrendous, and whose last TATL Y flight in 2004 made him say he never wanted to do that again, I really hope the rouge 763s are gone forever.

I just think it's premature to definitively state that the 763s are done at rouge and never coming back.

*I'll put a more detailed update in the fleet changes thread later, but by my count, AC still owns or is on lease for 15 763s, 11 from rouge and 4 from mainline. Of those, 7 are supposed to be converted to cargo configuration (although only 2 in service this year), leaving 8 whose fates are yet to be determined. That would be a small sub-fleet, but not unmanageable. They already have pilots, and spares and maintenance can be spread across both passenger and cargo aircraft.

ChrisA330

Sure things can change... But I'm not sure that the portion of Mike's comment you quoted tells the whole story:

"No, I think we made the conscious decision to exit the wide bodies from Rouge, and to your point flow the traffic through our partners -- partner hubs. We see no reason at this point in time to change that strategy or change that direction, full stop. Obviously we're focused on the narrow body part of Rouge now."