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Claiming compensation from AC under APPR (Air Passenger Protection Regulations)

Claiming compensation from AC under APPR (Air Passenger Protection Regulations)

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Old Aug 24, 22, 6:47 am   -   Wikipost
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AC Delayed/Cancelled Flight Compensation Threads

There are several threads on compensation for delayed/cancelled flights operated by AC.

If your question is about APPR (Canadian regulations), this is the correct thread.

For information regarding which regime(s) you're eligible for compensation under, or which would be more favourable, please see: Air Canada Compensation For Delayed/Cancelled Flights

For information on claiming compensation under EU rules (a.k.a. EU261 or EC261), please see: Claiming EU261 Compensation from AC
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Old Aug 24, 22, 3:18 am
  #241  
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Programs: QF, CoUniHound Refugee
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I got to thinking about how Air Canada handled my APPR claim. The sheer arrogance of their response that crew scheduling is not their fault, thumbing their nose at APPR designed to protect Canadians against unpunctual flights. The fact that someone flying for 10 on RyanAir or EasyJet would receive their EU 261 compensation without so much as a fight meanwhile those of us spending hundreds of times more on said flight are lucky if we get a meal and hotel voucher. I also know that the fight ahead to get what is entitled may be a long way involving the ACCC, CTA, small claims courts in Australia, Ontario and New Brunswick depending on how things go. I can completely understand why many people would simply accept the coupon handed to them as compensation. I also see, looking at this thread that there are many people in a similar situation. For whatever reason I just don't think it's right for Air Canada to be flagrantly breaking the law.

Hence, what I propose for those interested is we form a class action suit against Air Canada to get this compensation doled it. I reckon there must be thousands of people in the same situation as I and clearly it would be more economical if we all joined forces and sought remedy through a class action than to go our own way and wait weeks, months or perhaps evens years for the CTA to get back to us given the many appeals they have to look at. I'll be contacting law firms here in Australia and in Canada ( I know a couple that deal with aviation related class actions) to see if there is any interest in taking up the case. I'll try and keep people posted on the progress of this as I go along.


Originally Posted by Adam Smith View Post
That's wrong. It can be used to cover base fare, taxes, fees on flights, and certain ancillary services, e.g. seat selection, as detailed on this page.
I stand corrected. Notwithstanding this fact, this coupon will do little use for me as I book flights on Delta or Qantas in the coming months. It will not cover the expenses incurred out of pocket by the long layover by yours truly. Only cash can do that and per APPR this is what I'm entitled to due to a cancellation entirely within Air Canada's control.

-RooFlyer88
kangarooflyer88 is offline  
Old Aug 24, 22, 9:02 am
  #242  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 22
Its now 30 days since I sent my claim to Air Canada due to a delay that caused us to miss our connection, and had to pay for two nights accomodation out of my pocket. Should I wait for a reply or just send the case to the CTA?


I was hoping getting my expenses reimbursed by the insurance company instead of waiting for Air Canada, but they want an official statement from Air Canada regarding the delay. Flight affected, reason for delay etc.. pretty industry standard.

I filed an request for an insurance letter to Air Canada at the same time as my APPR claim. The response for an insurance letter came today, they even refuse to issue a letter

The response was:

Thank you for contacting us regarding the information you need to provide your insurance company.

If you experienced a flight disruption, the insurance company will accept a copy of the itinerary you received upon booking and any itinerary updates received thereafter, along with copies of any flight delay/cancellation notifications you received.




For the record I did not receive any delay notifications, only notification I got was when boarding started.
I have already provided this to the insurance company, yet they want an official statement. Which I can understand. I am quite suprised by this response by Air Canada, I have never - ever had problems getting an insurance letter / statement from an airline before.
Also this rejection makes me even more sure that I am eglible for compensation due to this delay.
Lars Johansen is offline  
Old Aug 24, 22, 9:17 am
  #243  
 
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Originally Posted by Lars Johansen View Post
Its now 30 days since I sent my claim to Air Canada due to a delay that caused us to miss our connection, and had to pay for two nights accomodation out of my pocket. Should I wait for a reply or just send the case to the CTA?


I was hoping getting my expenses reimbursed by the insurance company instead of waiting for Air Canada, but they want an official statement from Air Canada regarding the delay. Flight affected, reason for delay etc.. pretty industry standard.

I filed an request for an insurance letter to Air Canada at the same time as my APPR claim. The response for an insurance letter came today, they even refuse to issue a letter

The response was:

Thank you for contacting us regarding the information you need to provide your insurance company.

If you experienced a flight disruption, the insurance company will accept a copy of the itinerary you received upon booking and any itinerary updates received thereafter, along with copies of any flight delay/cancellation notifications you received.




For the record I did not receive any delay notifications, only notification I got was when boarding started.
I have already provided this to the insurance company, yet they want an official statement. Which I can understand. I am quite suprised by this response by Air Canada, I have never - ever had problems getting an insurance letter / statement from an airline before.
Also this rejection makes me even more sure that I am eglible for compensation due to this delay.
You should wait for their response. I know it's hard hanging in there but by waiting for AC to respond you get their official position on the matter on record (i.e. in your email). In my case I submitted my APPR claim to them on June 28th and only yesterday received a response back (rejecting the claim since crew scheduling is something outside of their control). Armed with their official response, I can now approach CTA, ACCC, or a small claims court to seek compensation since they breached their contract with me regarding compensation and any court in the land will laugh at any argument that crew scheduling is a delay outside of their control. What is key is you need to give them the opportunity to investigate. That way you can claim to a judge or to the CTA that hey, we acted in good faith to allow them to investigate the matter before escalating, and when their investigation concluded that crew scheduling was not within their control, it became clear that the airline wanted to breach the contract they had with us.

You can track the progress of your APPR claim by visiting the Air Canada website. Click customer support on the top banner and when the customer support page loads, you'll see a red dot towards the lower right of your screen. Click on it and a chat window will appear. Enter your case number from the APPR claim and the chat bot will come back and provide you with an update on the claim. Most likely it will say that the case is still under investigation.

Hope that helps.

Originally Posted by Adam Smith View Post
That's wrong. It can be used to cover base fare, taxes, fees on flights, and certain ancillary services, e.g. seat selection, as detailed on this page.
I just reread the official response provided by AC to my APPR claim and notice conflicting advice. After discussing the reason they believe the claim should be denied they say the following:

As a goodwill gesture, we’d like to offer you a one-time discount of $300 off the base fare on your next booking at aircanada.com. Below, we have provided your eCoupon number and instructions on how to receive your discount. If you incurred expenses due to the disruption of your flight, please reply to this email and attach the receipts for our review and consideration.
Meanwhile later on in the email when they provide details on the eCoupon it says the following for T&Cs:
Air Canada eCoupon is redeemable at designated locations towards the purchase of air travel and ancillary services offered by Air Canada, Air Canada Express and Air Canada Rouge operated flights. For ticket purchases, you can use up to two eCoupons provided the total cost of the ticket purchase is covered fully by both eCoupons. Only one form of payment is accepted when purchasing a seat or travel option for an existing booking. You cannot consolidate the value of multiple eCoupons onto a single one.

eCoupons cannot be used when completing a booking with your mobile device, for Flight Pass Purchases, to purchase an Air Canada Vacations package, when booking travel for a group of ten or more, for hotel or car reservations or onboard our flights.
You may be right Adam that it can be used across the board for AC flights but the email response is confusing at best about how said eCoupon can be used. Certainly, I won't be using this eCoupon as I plan on receiving the full $1,000 entitled to me due to the 16+ hour delay.

One other point I think is worth sharing for every single person on this forum and something that I hope everyone shares with friends and relatives is that filing an APPR claim is not a waste of time or energy. You will get something out of it even if you only fill out the form. At the very least you can almost certainly expect to receive some discount by way of eCoupon or % off base fare. And if you are persistent and principled you might even get a lot more for your troubles. Please folks, please, if you ever get delayed and fall within the APPR, submit the claim now, ask questions later.

What is unclear about APPR is how the CTA monitors the statistics on this. For instance, does Air Canada need to report to the CTA how many APPR claims they received? If so, then every claim we put forward will put more pressure on the CTA and Air Canada to do the right thing. The CTA may very well shrug off a couple of thousand of APPR claims filed by AC customers citing the pandemic, but when we're talking about tens or even hundreds of thousands of such claims, it will become apparent to the CTA that the airline is making a mockery of APPR.

-RooFlyer88
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Last edited by Adam Smith; Aug 24, 22 at 10:04 am Reason: Merge consecutive posts by same user
kangarooflyer88 is offline  
Old Aug 24, 22, 3:26 pm
  #244  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
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Originally Posted by Lars Johansen View Post
I filed an request for an insurance letter to Air Canada at the same time as my APPR claim. The response for an insurance letter came today, they even refuse to issue a letter

The response was:

Thank you for contacting us regarding the information you need to provide your insurance company.

If you experienced a flight disruption, the insurance company will accept a copy of the itinerary you received upon booking and any itinerary updates received thereafter, along with copies of any flight delay/cancellation notifications you received.




For the record I did not receive any delay notifications, only notification I got was when boarding started.
I have already provided this to the insurance company, yet they want an official statement. Which I can understand. I am quite suprised by this response by Air Canada, I have never - ever had problems getting an insurance letter / statement from an airline before.
Also this rejection makes me even more sure that I am eglible for compensation due to this delay.
If you reply to their email and state that insurance requires a letter from the airline with your information, flight details, reason, etc., they should reply with one (speaking from a friend's experience). I don't know why it takes Air Canada 30 days to come back with what's basically an automated reply saying we don't give those out.

At the same time, I wonder if insurance will take that as Air Canada's official statement.
zappy312 is offline  
Old Aug 24, 22, 3:30 pm
  #245  
 
Join Date: May 2022
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Originally Posted by zappy312 View Post
If you reply to their email and state that insurance requires a letter from the airline with your information, flight details, reason, etc., they should reply with one (speaking from a friend's experience). I don't know why it takes Air Canada 30 days to come back with what's basically an automated reply saying we don't give those out.

At the same time, I wonder if insurance will take that as Air Canada's official statement.
It's entirely by design. The longer they can drag it out, the more time people have to cool down, and the less likely they are to continue putting up a fight.
cmill007 is offline  
Old Aug 25, 22, 1:21 am
  #246  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
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Originally Posted by zappy312 View Post
If you reply to their email and state that insurance requires a letter from the airline with your information, flight details, reason, etc., they should reply with one (speaking from a friend's experience). I don't know why it takes Air Canada 30 days to come back with what's basically an automated reply saying we don't give those out.

At the same time, I wonder if insurance will take that as Air Canada's official statement.
I replied to the mail immediately telling them that I really need an official letter.

However when checking the status of the case today on Air Canada -> Customer Support -> Chat, its telling me that the case is close.

Is there still hope for a reply?
Lars Johansen is offline  
Old Aug 30, 22, 1:57 am
  #247  
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
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Hi all,
I had a cancelled flight from June 29 (offering me a later flight 12 hours later!), submitted the APPR claim to AC on July 1. I ended up cancelling the flight but asked the agent to note the offered alternative was simply not acceptable to me.
Received the email July 1 confirming receipt of the APPR claim, said "30 days" - it's not been about 60. Do I have to call? (I know not to expect anything since they'll claim covid or whatever "safety").
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Old Aug 30, 22, 3:20 am
  #248  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 42
Originally Posted by kangarooflyer88 View Post
I got to thinking about how Air Canada handled my APPR claim. The sheer arrogance of their response that crew scheduling is not their fault, thumbing their nose at APPR designed to protect Canadians against unpunctual flights. The fact that someone flying for 10 on RyanAir or EasyJet would receive their EU 261 compensation without so much as a fight meanwhile those of us spending hundreds of times more on said flight are lucky if we get a meal and hotel voucher. I also know that the fight ahead to get what is entitled may be a long way involving the ACCC, CTA, small claims courts in Australia, Ontario and New Brunswick depending on how things go. I can completely understand why many people would simply accept the coupon handed to them as compensation. I also see, looking at this thread that there are many people in a similar situation. For whatever reason I just don't think it's right for Air Canada to be flagrantly breaking the law.

Hence, what I propose for those interested is we form a class action suit against Air Canada to get this compensation doled it. I reckon there must be thousands of people in the same situation as I and clearly it would be more economical if we all joined forces and sought remedy through a class action than to go our own way and wait weeks, months or perhaps evens years for the CTA to get back to us given the many appeals they have to look at. I'll be contacting law firms here in Australia and in Canada ( I know a couple that deal with aviation related class actions) to see if there is any interest in taking up the case. I'll try and keep people posted on the progress of this as I go along.

-RooFlyer88
I called around to a few law firms about this back in June and wasn't able to get any bites, so I ended up handling back in Germany, where I have insurance and lawyers aren't so bloody expensive. That said, if you get someone interested I'm happy to join as a named plaintiff. For what its worth I know that millertiterle.com have experience suing AC before.
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Old Aug 30, 22, 10:59 am
  #249  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
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Another CTA Decision has come out, this time finding Air Canada at fault for "crew constraints". AC presented more evidence this time (compared to WS). Even though the FO was unable to complete their refresher training, and AC couldn't staff the flight due to the pandemic, the delta variant, new government measures, operational issues, third party staffing issues, and bottlenecked training, the CTA didn't find accept that as unavoidable despite prior planning (or lack thereof).
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Old Aug 30, 22, 11:14 am
  #250  
 
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Has anyone at all gotten a response from Customer Care after responding to the initial denial email?
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Old Aug 30, 22, 11:49 am
  #251  
 
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Originally Posted by zappy312 View Post
Another CTA Decision has come out, this time finding Air Canada at fault for "crew constraints". AC presented more evidence this time (compared to WS). Even though the FO was unable to complete their refresher training, and AC couldn't staff the flight due to the pandemic, the delta variant, new government measures, operational issues, third party staffing issues, and bottlenecked training, the CTA didn't find accept that as unavoidable despite prior planning (or lack thereof).
The case summary makes for interesting reading. For me, one new Air Canada strategy jumped out.

In addition to revising the reason for the disruption originally given to the pax, AC also appears to claim that even determining the underlying issue for a given disputed claim is outside of their control:

(Air Canada) asserts that carriers cannot be expected to ascribe specific events to one specific disruption, nor provide information of specifically what happened to which flight.
Perhaps this explains AC's perpetual lack of OTP - an inability to understand or control anything specific.

That said, the CTA didn't buy this assertion, so perhaps future APPR claims will benefit. At least for complaints involving AC.

As Adam Smith and others have observed, the practical bounds of the APPR are being defined over time via individual cases.
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Old Aug 30, 22, 12:17 pm
  #252  
 
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The latest ruling strikes me as very similar to the WS ruling: the airline didnt provide its homework. Its also an old case (August 2021), so I suspect AC will come better prepared for newer cases.

I expect ACll join WS in the latters court action on the same ruling it received. Heres their stance:WestJets lawyers essentially argue that the CTA misinterpreted various sections of the APPR when ruling that staffing numbers are mostly entirely in the airlines control and that a company must take all reasonable measures to mitigate the effects of staff shortages.

WestJet also accused the CTA of making a mistake by reversing the onus of proof by demanding that the airline prove that that any disruption to a flight is not in fact within its control.

https://nationalpost.com/news/westje...b8dc7d00e/amp/

The reversing the onus of proof argument is an interesting tack. If the onus of proof isnt on the airline, it presumably reverts (at least partially) to the CTAs own normal standard: the onus is on the applicant to establish, on a balance of probabilities, that the carrier failed to properly apply the rules applicable to their ticket.

That adversarial approach employed by the CTA for far too long may prove to be its fatal flaw. If the courts rule that the onus of proof is on consumers to prove that airlines control a situation, those APPRs are more or less dead in the water, with many questions about the CTAs ability to function in its current form.

While these rulings suggest a move in the right direction, I remain pessimistic about a positive outcome (for consumers) from the courts. Im not convinced that the courts will be able to square away the onus of proof precedents the CTA has set with its adversarial approach to consumers. Thats where the NS small claims court stumbled as well with the APPRs - with the consumer being unable to prove AC could have fixed its planes in shorter period (how a consumer is supposed to prove that.is anybodys guess).
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Old Aug 30, 22, 1:55 pm
  #253  
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Originally Posted by Bohemian1 View Post
In addition to revising the reason for the disruption originally given to the pax, AC also appears to claim that even determining the underlying issue for a given disputed claim is outside of their control:

(Air Canada) asserts that carriers cannot be expected to ascribe specific events to one specific disruption, nor provide information of specifically what happened to which flight.
Perhaps this explains AC's perpetual lack of OTP - an inability to understand or control anything specific.
In the context of APPR, I certainly don't think this is a valid defense for AC.

However, I don't disagree with AC.

On a given day, if you have 75 unexpected aircraft swaps and 100 crew swaps, due to previous upstream issues and other constraints, what is the cause?

Weather in YVR means the 1800 YYZ-LHR inbound aircraft is going to be 3 hours late. Instead, they take the 2000 YYZ-FRA aircraft (giving it the aircraft now ready to depart at 2100). But now there's a crew timeout issue on YYZ-FRA, so they need to grab a reserve crew, who will also not be available until 2100.

What's the cause of the 2 hour YYZ-LHR delay? Weather? Fleet management?

What's the cause of the 1 hour YYZ-FRA delay? Weather? Fleet management? Crew constraints?

IMO unless there's something like a thunderstorm at my origin or destination airport, it's all AC's fault/responsibility/etc.

But there are a lot of moving parts for any given flight, and while I will fight for compensation every time, I'm not going to fault them for not being able to attribute a delay/cancellation to one specific underlying cause.
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Old Aug 30, 22, 2:16 pm
  #254  
 
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Originally Posted by canadiancow View Post
In the context of APPR, I certainly don't think this is a valid defense for AC.

However, I don't disagree with AC.

On a given day, if you have 75 unexpected aircraft swaps and 100 crew swaps, due to previous upstream issues and other constraints, what is the cause?

IMO unless there's something like a thunderstorm at my origin or destination airport, it's all AC's fault/responsibility/etc.

But there are a lot of moving parts for any given flight, and while I will fight for compensation every time, I'm not going to fault them for not being able to attribute a delay/cancellation to one specific underlying cause.
Good example and take.

I had an afternoon YYZ-XXX flight that was cancelled due to "maintenance" (as listed in the app, the actual phrasing is more vague). The tail assigned that was originally scheduled to fly my YYZ-XXX flight, ended up flying YYZ-YTS-YYZ-XXX, with myself being rebooked onto YYZ-XXX later that evening.

Based on the series of events, I really doubt my YYZ-XXX flight wasn't able to operate due to unscheduled maintenance. I'd like to think it was a fleet management decision to take the plane, use it on a different route that afternoon, and then use it to get me to XXX that same evening.

(But of course, AC determined it was due to unforeseen staffing issues...related to ground handling activities...which arose due to COVID-19".)

Last edited by zappy312; Aug 30, 22 at 2:16 pm Reason: Grammar
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Old Aug 30, 22, 4:29 pm
  #255  
 
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Originally Posted by cmill007 View Post
Has anyone at all gotten a response from Customer Care after responding to the initial denial email?
Yes, I once responded with detailed information indicating that I believed their excuse to be false, showing the assigned aircraft, its movements, and the time the delay was announced via email. They simply said they were sorry that I was unhappy and copy-pasted the rest of the initial denial response.
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