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Claiming compensation from AC under APPR (Air Passenger Protection Regulations)

Old Aug 24, 22, 3:47 pm
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AC Delayed/Cancelled Flight Compensation Threads

There are several threads on compensation for delayed/cancelled flights operated by AC.

If your question is about APPR (Canadian regulations), this is the correct thread.

For information regarding which regime(s) you're eligible for compensation under, or which would be more favourable, please see: Air Canada Compensation For Delayed/Cancelled Flights

For information on claiming compensation under EU rules (a.k.a. EU261 or EC261), please see: Claiming EU261 Compensation from AC
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Claiming compensation from AC under APPR (Air Passenger Protection Regulations)

Old Aug 5, 22, 1:42 pm
  #196  
 
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Originally Posted by lallied View Post
You will get a reply saying that no compensation due because circumstances out of AC control. Which apparently includes everything including maintenance, mechanical and weather issues.
If all these conditions are excluded, then under what exact circumstances is compensation due?
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Old Aug 5, 22, 9:30 pm
  #197  
 
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Air Canada chose not to proceed with Mediation for a CTA complaint I put in (over the definition of impossible weather), so I guess I'm left with Adjudication, where the CTA can make the decision for Air Canada (and result in future references).
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Old Aug 7, 22, 12:24 pm
  #198  
 
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Was booked on the following itinerary on 21st July:

AC 607 YHZ-YYZ
AC 8359 YYZ-YQG (Windsor).

I boarded AC 607 and received an e-mail that AC8359 was cancelled due to an "unforeseen maintenance issue" and was rebooked for the morning flight on the 22nd (which in itself was an hour late because it took longer to tow the aircraft to the gate but that's another discussion). Upon getting home and doing investigating, I see that the aircraft that was due to operate AC8359 on the 21st was pulled from the YYZ-YQG route and instead operated a Timmins service 30 minutes after the cancelled Windsor flight. To me, AC8359 wasn't cancelled due to the aircraft going mechanical They made an operational decision to prioritise the Timmins flight over the Windsor flight for whatever reason (which I'm not going to question, Timmins could have had a higher load factor so less inconvenienced passengers etc). Somehow I don't think Air Canada and I are going to see eye-to-eye on this. (Don't understand why mechanicals are excluded anyway, EC/UK 261 is much better in this situation). AC did give me a hotel and a $20 meal voucher without fuss, so credit for doing that I suppose.
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Old Aug 7, 22, 2:12 pm
  #199  
 
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Originally Posted by ACYYZYHZ View Post
Was booked on the following itinerary on 21st July:
AC 607 YHZ-YYZ
AC 8359 YYZ-YQG (Windsor).
I boarded AC 607 and received an e-mail that AC8359 was cancelled due to an "unforeseen maintenance issue" and was rebooked for the morning flight on the 22nd (which in itself was an hour late because it took longer to tow the aircraft to the gate but that's another discussion). Upon getting home and doing investigating, I see that the aircraft that was due to operate AC8359 on the 21st was pulled from the YYZ-YQG route and instead operated a Timmins service 30 minutes after the cancelled Windsor flight. To me, AC8359 wasn't cancelled due to the aircraft going mechanical They made an operational decision to prioritise the Timmins flight over the Windsor flight for whatever reason (which I'm not going to question, Timmins could have had a higher load factor so less inconvenienced passengers etc). Somehow I don't think Air Canada and I are going to see eye-to-eye on this. (Don't understand why mechanicals are excluded anyway, EC/UK 261 is much better in this situation). AC did give me a hotel and a $20 meal voucher without fuss, so credit for doing that I suppose.
if AC cannot be trusted to provide the accurate reason for a delay, or don't pay the compensation due, then it should be taken out of their hands.
In the UK, train delays are compensated by an independent but industry funded web-based refund scheme.
compensation is: 15-29 minutes you're entitled to 25% of the cost of a single journey. 30-59 minutes you're entitled to 50% of the cost of a single journey. 60-119 minutes you're entitled to 100% of the cost of a single journey. 120+ minutes you're entitled to 100% of the cost of a return journey (a full day's travel). Its all done online and is advertised over the PA system by the train guards once the 15 minute delay is reached.
The UK Transport minister has recently suggested that something similar be set up for air delays.
In Canada? Dream on
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Old Aug 7, 22, 6:51 pm
  #200  
 
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Originally Posted by tomvancouver View Post
if AC cannot be trusted to provide the accurate reason for a delay, or don't pay the compensation due, then it should be taken out of their hands.
In the UK, train delays are compensated by an independent but industry funded web-based refund scheme.
compensation is: 15-29 minutes you're entitled to 25% of the cost of a single journey. 30-59 minutes you're entitled to 50% of the cost of a single journey. 60-119 minutes you're entitled to 100% of the cost of a single journey. 120+ minutes you're entitled to 100% of the cost of a return journey (a full day's travel). Its all done online and is advertised over the PA system by the train guards once the 15 minute delay is reached.
The UK Transport minister has recently suggested that something similar be set up for air delays.
In Canada? Dream on
I live in London, and youre right, train delay repay is so much smoother. (And its paid for every reason.whether the TOC or Network Rail pays is sorted behind the scenes).

Canadas new regulation are a good first step, but they fall incredibly short. When I was at the Customer Services Desk at YYZ getting a voucher, I saw a large number of people denied vouchers because aircraft constraints are due to COVID which is outside Air Canadas control. Why the Canadian government decided to introduce inferior rules, I will never know.
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Old Aug 8, 22, 3:09 pm
  #201  
 
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It seems that AC's behaviour could now be part of their SOP (link to Global news, but other news sources also reported on this).

While this was mentioned on FT a while back, it appears that "everything is a safety issue" (my sarcastic PoV only) is still their internal policy:

In the December memo, which was issued at the height of the Omicron wave of COVID-19, Air Canada said: “Effective immediately, flight cancellations due to crew are considered as Within Carrier Control — For Safety.”

“Customers impacted by these flight cancellations will still be eligible for the standard of treatments such as hotel accommodations, meals etc. but will no longer be eligible for APPR claims/monetary compensation.”

The staff directive said the stance would be “temporary.” But Air Canada acknowledged in an email on July 25 that the policy “remains in place given the continued exceptional circumstances brought on by COVID variants.”
The CTA most definitely does not agree, but AC appears to be intransigent at this point.
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Old Aug 8, 22, 7:21 pm
  #202  
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Originally Posted by Bohemian1 View Post
It seems that AC's behaviour could now be part of their SOP (link to Global news, but other news sources also reported on this).

While this was mentioned on FT a while back, it appears that "everything is a safety issue" (my sarcastic PoV only) is still their internal policy:

The CTA most definitely does not agree, but AC appears to be intransigent at this point.
I've been successful with credit card chargebacks when the airline is playing games - keep records of everything and be prepared to fight them. US based customers can also rely on a small claims court filing if you reside where they have a physical presence.
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Old Aug 9, 22, 8:28 am
  #203  
 
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I submitted a couple of APPR claims back in late June/early July and haven't yet received a response back from AC (despite them promising to get back within 30 days). The first one was a delay of over 9 hours due to the flight I was originally booked to be on being cancelled due to crew scheduling issues which so far as I can tell is completely within the airline's control. On a whim, I thought I'd call AC reservations to see how on earth I should follow up with this and was given a hint which I think maybe be helpful to those on the forum: if you click Customer Support on the Air Canada website and click the red chat button on the lower right, you can simply paste your case number in and it will tell you the current status. Not as good as getting a prompt response but at least we know what the status is and have a way of tracking the lead time on responses since we can screenshot the response.

-RooFlyer88
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Old Aug 9, 22, 6:37 pm
  #204  
 
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Originally Posted by pdbe25 View Post
AC801 on the first leg of my DUB-YYZ-CLT trip on the 09 July 2022 departed late and arrived in Toronto Airport 4+ hours late. The text notification said this was due to Airport Limitations.
I missed my connection in Toronto Airport due to the late arrival of AC801.
On 10 July 2022, my rebooked flight with Air Canada was cancelled due to pandemic-related factors beyond our control such as industry-wide labour shortages and government entry requirements
I eventually arrived on 11 July in CLT

My compensation claim to Air Canada for AC801 DUB to YYZ was rejected as follows.

We are in receipt of your claim under the Air Passenger Protection Regulations for flight 801 on 2022-07-09. We are sorry for the delay you experienced at arrival to your final destination.
In this instance, the compensation you are requesting does not apply because the delay was caused by a safety-related issue.
We hope that we may have another opportunity to welcome you on board.


How does airport limitation become a safety issue two weeks later?

What options for compensation are available to me?

Anyone in a similar situation?
I have decided to go through CTA. I hope to get a resolution by late Autumn or just in time for Christmas.
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Old Aug 9, 22, 6:44 pm
  #205  
 
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Originally Posted by pdbe25 View Post
I have decided to go through CTA. I hope to get a resolution by late Autumn or just in time for Christmas.
I will pursue CTA if my claim doesn't get answered in a timely fashion (i.e. 60 days) and/or gets rejected. I am thinking (although I could be wrong) that this delay is good news since AC is struggling to find a way to excuse themselves out of a crew scheduling issue. I also think that this travel season will be the one that forces Transport Canada to force the airlines to follow the APPR once they realize that AC doesn't care about following the law. This exact same thing played out in Europe when EU 261 was introduced with airlines claiming crew scheduling was a safety issue and thus exempt from compensation.

What I would encourage everyone to do is to fight your APPR claims to the end, including filing appeals to the CTA. If the CTA sees a deluge of APPR related claims and must adjudicated them, maybe they'll realize they need to take enforcement action against the airlines that don't play by the rules.

-RooFlyer88
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Old Aug 9, 22, 7:05 pm
  #206  
 
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We had one claim accepted and two declined for a 3 passanger itinerary back in May (typical because of covid rationale). After a couple back and forth, and a CTA claim that hasn't been processed yet as far as i know AC decided to pay 1000 each for the other two claims. Seems like they must know their standard procedure is not defensible but hope to scare off a sizable portion of legitimate complaints, pays off to be persist in these cases. I think this needs a government intervention but parliament only seems to care what languages the ceo is fluent in
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Old Aug 9, 22, 10:10 pm
  #207  
 
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Originally Posted by kangarooflyer88 View Post
I will pursue CTA if my claim doesn't get answered in a timely fashion (i.e. 60 days) and/or gets rejected. I am thinking (although I could be wrong) that this delay is good news since AC is struggling to find a way to excuse themselves out of a crew scheduling issue. I also think that this travel season will be the one that forces Transport Canada to force the airlines to follow the APPR once they realize that AC doesn't care about following the law. This exact same thing played out in Europe when EU 261 was introduced with airlines claiming crew scheduling was a safety issue and thus exempt from compensation.

What I would encourage everyone to do is to fight your APPR claims to the end, including filing appeals to the CTA. If the CTA sees a deluge of APPR related claims and must adjudicated them, maybe they'll realize they need to take enforcement action against the airlines that don't play by the rules.

-RooFlyer88
I wish you all the best, but I think youre going to be very disappointed if you think the CTA is going to change tack and follow the EU approach.

The EU APPRs dont give much leeway to airlines, and arent constrained by concerns about airline profitability.

The CTAs approach, on the other hand, is best summarized by this quote from an MP speaking on behalf of the government:

Bill C-49 seeks a balanced approach as it relates to air passenger rights, one that would ensure the passenger would be treated fairly, but also one that would allow the air carrier to operate its business in a manner such that it could remain competitive and profitable.

https://www.ourcommons.ca/DocumentVi...ng-225/hansard (see 1320)

In short, dont expect them to lift a finger for you or other consumers if airlines say that it will affect their profitability. The CTA is ultimately just a small Agency in a smaller town; expecting it to have a worldview or perspective similar to that of the seasoned travellers employed at EU Agencies is unreasonable.
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Old Aug 9, 22, 11:32 pm
  #208  
 
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Originally Posted by yulred View Post
I wish you all the best, but I think you’re going to be very disappointed if you think the CTA is going to change tack and follow the EU approach.

The EU APPRs don’t give much leeway to airlines, and aren’t constrained by concerns about airline profitability.

The CTA’s approach, on the other hand, is best summarized by this quote from an MP speaking on behalf of the government:

“Bill C-49 seeks a balanced approach as it relates to air passenger rights, one that would ensure the passenger would be treated fairly, but also one that would allow the air carrier to operate its business in a manner such that it could remain competitive and profitable.”

https://www.ourcommons.ca/DocumentVi...ng-225/hansard (see 1320)

In short, don’t expect them to lift a finger for you or other consumers if airlines say that it will affect their profitability. The CTA is ultimately just a small Agency in a smaller town; expecting it to have a worldview or perspective similar to that of the seasoned travellers employed at EU Agencies is unreasonable.
As it presently stands my flight is covered by both Canadian and Australia consumer law since my trip started at an Australian port and arrived in a Canadian port. In addition to this, there is also small claims court here in Australia and Canada should neither AC nor the CTA or Fair Trading resolve my issue. You may very well be right that ultimately these attempts may fail, but hopefully I will raise enough hell and inconvenience to AC that they will change their behaviour from cancelling flights last minute leaving passengers stranded without any duty of care. Certainly talking to the agent at AC it seems like they are inundated by complaints and no doubt had to hire more people to adjudicate these concerns in a legally timely manner.

Also if the goal of the CTA and the APPR legislation is sincerely to make Canadian airlines competitive and profitable, they need to slap them with fines when they delay and cancel flights. It is the only way the airlines will learn that running an on-time operation is good for profits. And I ask those in the community: can you name a single major airline that is neither profitable nor competitive but boasts operational excellence (i.e. low cancelled or delayed flights)? I can't think of any!

-RooFlyer88
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Old Aug 10, 22, 9:42 am
  #209  
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Originally Posted by yulred View Post
I wish you all the best, but I think youre going to be very disappointed if you think the CTA is going to change tack and follow the EU approach.

The EU APPRs dont give much leeway to airlines, and arent constrained by concerns about airline profitability.
Many seem to forget that it took years for EU261 to become what it is now, as courts interpreted bits of the regulation that hadn't been fully fleshed out, such as what was with an airline's control and what was outside of it, as relates to things like maintenance.

While I agree that Canadian politicians aimed lower than they should have when crafting the regulations, there's still potential for some aspects to be clarified in consumers' favour.

AC's current ludicrous approach that nothing is their fault will hopefully be resoundingly rejected by the CTA and/or courts, and we'll establish some sort of useful precedent about what circumstances require the airline to pay out.
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Old Aug 10, 22, 10:05 am
  #210  
 
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Originally Posted by Adam Smith View Post
Many seem to forget that it took years for EU261 to become what it is now, as courts interpreted bits of the regulation that hadn't been fully fleshed out, such as what was with an airline's control and what was outside of it, as relates to things like maintenance.
Perhaps I'm not informed enough about the APPR but it's my understanding that this is actual legislation passed by Parliament in Canada. If this is the case, then I suspect that in addition to the CTA and Transport Canada, other adjudicating bodies such as courts will be tasked with interpreting the legislation and applying it to the airlines. Hence, as you suggest it may very well be the case that this fight carried out over many years will result in airlines being forced to either run their airlines well operationally or pay the price to consumers.

One other point I must bring up is that despite EU261 existing, there are tons of low cost budget airlines in Europe that are absolutely thriving in the environment from RyanAir and EasyJet to upstarts like Wizz Air. I reckon (although I could be mistaken) that these airlines run a tight ship and thus avoid having to pay much by way of EU261. It's very simple really: if you don't excessively delay or cancel flights, you don't owe anyone anything. And not only that, your pilots are happy, your crew is happy, dispatch is happy - really everyone is happy.

-RooFlyer88
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