Air Canada Rouge 767 Retirements

Old Nov 7, 19, 6:16 am
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Air Canada Rouge 767 Retirements

ACr has six 767 greater than 27 years old:

C-FXCA is 29.6
C-GSCA is 28.5
C-GDUZ is 28
C-GBZR is 27.8
C-GHLA is 27.3
C-GHLK is 27.1

Mainline still has 5 that are 28.7 to 30.6 years old and are likely going to be retired in 2020.

The ACr 767's are not far behind in age. Doesn't AC need to consider retiring these in the next few years as they approach 30? There isn't a huge number of 767's out there with a large number being converted to cargo, especially for Amazon. Replacement has not been mentioned anywhere. The 15 A330's at mainline are all supposed to get refurbished to Dreamcabin standards which means there are no aircraft in the mainline fleet that can be moved over.

This has been discussed before, but with no new aircraft model (NMA) coming out anytime soon, it seems that something else would need to be considered in a fairly urgent way.
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Old Nov 7, 19, 6:28 am
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No need for a new thread. Previously discussed here: Air Canada's aging 767-300's
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Old Jan 22, 20, 6:27 pm
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Originally Posted by EdmFlyBoi View Post
Mainline still has 5 that are 28.7 to 30.6 years old and are likely going to be retired in 2020.

The ACr 767's are not far behind in age. Doesn't AC need to consider retiring these in the next few years as they approach 30? There isn't a huge number of 767's out there with a large number being converted to cargo, especially for Amazon. Replacement has not been mentioned anywhere. The 15 A330's at mainline are all supposed to get refurbished to Dreamcabin standards which means there are no aircraft in the mainline fleet that can be moved over.

This has been discussed before, but with no new aircraft model (NMA) coming out anytime soon, it seems that something else would need to be considered in a fairly urgent way.
You're right that they're going to have to start dealing with retirements on these things soon. Surely AC does have a plan, but I haven't a clue what it is. Maybe someone could ask a rouge 763 pilot next time they see one. Or maybe we'll get some updates from AC when they release their year-end 2019 results in a few weeks.

The simplest replacement would be to find more used middle-aged 763s out in the market. AC already has both PW and GE engines in the rouge fleet, so presumably they have some flexibility in what they acquire. But it does seem it's a bit of a tight market for used 763s at the moment.

AC has really loved the 333s. Agreed that it's unlikely the ones they're just bringing in to mainline get rouged any time soon, given the high cost of re-configuring the cabins, but maybe there are more 333s out there in the secondary market that could be had at reasonable prices.

I know a few people have speculated over the years that they'd like to see rouge go to 787s, and AC does still have 13 787 options, but those might still be more expensive than AC wants for rouge.

Anyone heard any chatter about this? I'm quite curious.

Originally Posted by Seat13F_AC_CRJ View Post
No need for a new thread. Previously discussed here: Air Canada's aging 767-300's
Nope, that thread deals entirely with retirement of mainline 763s.
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Old Jan 22, 20, 6:36 pm
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Air Transat.
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Old Jan 22, 20, 6:38 pm
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Originally Posted by YWG-RO View Post
Air Transat.
Would you care to elaborate on that? It's not like TS's aircraft just sit around on the ground doing nothing right now. Are you saying that AC is going to cut a bunch of TS's routes so that it can use TS's 330s to replace rouge 763s?
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Old Jan 22, 20, 6:54 pm
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I seem to recall AC chose to transfer the newer 763s to Rouge while keeping the older ones for a little while. It does not appear that they plan to retire them very soon, and fuel is currently cheap and will likely stay cheap for the foreseeable future.
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Old Jan 22, 20, 7:10 pm
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I think acquiring Air Transat will permit a degree of consolidation in route planning. I imagine we will eventually see A330s at Rouge.

Does AC go with more A330s, probably. Could they go with 787-10s, maybe since they’ll probably get a great deal from Boeing.

in terms of mainline 767s, they’ll use them as long as possible owing to MAX issue. The A223s can’t come quickly enough.

this summer could be unpleasant given recent news on the MAX.
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Old Jan 22, 20, 7:53 pm
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Originally Posted by YWG-RO View Post

Does AC go with more A330s, probably. Could they go with 787-10s, maybe since they’ll probably get a great deal from Boeing.

The 787 and the 330 don't really suit the same missions. The 787 is much longer legged, making it more costly on shorter routes. So there is room for both, which is why AC has been happy to grab used 333s sich as the former SQ, then TPO ones.
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Old Jan 22, 20, 8:15 pm
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I don't know that we'll see 1 for 1 replacement. I think there's a significant chance we'll see a mix of different things on different routes - more of the sunspots being operated by narrowbodies, the increased mainline A330 fleet, perhaps some trading off flying with Transat, and changing routes/frequencies to split flying with the Max (eventually, maybe...). Maybe YUL-LIS or YYZ-OPO daily on the Max rather than 4x or 5x on a 763, for example (don't know the frequencies offhand, I just mean apply that idea to France/Portugal/Spain/Ireland/UK).
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Old Jan 22, 20, 8:37 pm
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Originally Posted by Stranger View Post
I seem to recall AC chose to transfer the newer 763s to Rouge while keeping the older ones for a little while. It does not appear that they plan to retire them very soon, and fuel is currently cheap and will likely stay cheap for the foreseeable future.
Your recollection is somewhat correct. The oldest 763s were kept at mainline, but, as pointed out in the OP, six of them are 27 or older. History suggests that they'll need to be retired in their early 30s, which means that some of them could be running out of time pretty soon - C-FXCA is now 29.8 years old. So AC needs to be working on the replacement plan now.

Originally Posted by YWG-RO View Post
I think acquiring Air Transat will permit a degree of consolidation in route planning. I imagine we will eventually see A330s at Rouge.
Thanks for sharing some actual views

Does AC go with more A330s, probably. Could they go with 787-10s, maybe since they’ll probably get a great deal from Boeing.
787-10s at rouge? That would be a huge upgauge. The current rouge 763s seat 282. The 789 in mainline configuration seats 296, in a much more premium layout than rouge has. In a rouge-type layout, a 78J would likely be well over 350 seats. For instance, Neos, a European discount airline, has 359-seat 789s, with 28 PY and 331 Y. And with more generous pitch than rouge! Even if AC ordered 789s for rouge and threw in a few more PY seats (or, my dream, a little 16- or 20-seat J cabin), it could easily be a 350-seat plane, which would be a ~25% increase in capacity from the 763s. That seems like a pretty sizeable jump, but not ridiculous. But to add another... 50?... seats in a 787-10, that seems a stretch.

in terms of mainline 767s, they’ll use them as long as possible owing to MAX issue.
Agreed, but that's probably measured in months, rather than years.

Originally Posted by mj188 View Post
I don't know that we'll see 1 for 1 replacement. I think there's a significant chance we'll see a mix of different things on different routes - more of the sunspots being operated by narrowbodies, the increased mainline A330 fleet, perhaps some trading off flying with Transat, and changing routes/frequencies to split flying with the Max (eventually, maybe...). Maybe YUL-LIS or YYZ-OPO daily on the Max rather than 4x or 5x on a 763, for example (don't know the frequencies offhand, I just mean apply that idea to France/Portugal/Spain/Ireland/UK).
I think that's an interesting concept. I wonder whether the 321LR might be a fit in that respect. It could certainly handle some of the short TATLs and Caribbean/LatAm should be easy, so YYZ-BOG/LIM, etc might work, and rouge uses the 763s on a lot of routes that are less than daily.
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Old Jan 22, 20, 9:44 pm
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Originally Posted by Adam Smith View Post



I think that's an interesting concept. I wonder whether the 321LR might be a fit in that respect. It could certainly handle some of the short TATLs and Caribbean/LatAm should be easy, so YYZ-BOG/LIM, etc might work, and rouge uses the 763s on a lot of routes that are less than daily.
Also, more importantly, some European routes. Even more so with the 321XLR. Which in some ways may turn into a game changer. Albeit not necessarily at Rouge.
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Old Jan 22, 20, 9:49 pm
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Originally Posted by Stranger View Post
Also, more importantly, some European routes. Even more so with the 321XLR. Which in some ways may turn into a game changer. Albeit not necessarily at Rouge.
Ummm... "Short TATLs" = European routes

And yes, it could end up at mainline, instead of rouge, or at both mainline and rouge. But rouge, in some ways, might make more sense, since it has so many routes that are less than daily and probably don't have a ton of cargo demand, where switching from a 763 3-5x weekly to a 321LR/XLR daily (or less than daily but more frequent) might make sense. I don't see AC using 321LR/XLR on routes that are already getting a daily widebody, which is the case for much of the mainline TATL network.

If they do pick up the 321LR or XLR, I'd love to see them put some pods in like TP has done, or like AA has done with its "A321T". I think it's nice that AC has been adding service to places like BOD, KEF, etc using the 7M8 (some now replaced with rouge 763s), but I have no desire to ever do a TATL (or even half-TATL to Iceland) in a recliner. Pods or nothing!

Last edited by Adam Smith; Jan 23, 20 at 11:37 am
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Old Jan 22, 20, 10:35 pm
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Originally Posted by Adam Smith View Post
It's not like TS's aircraft just sit around on the ground doing nothing right now.
Are you sure?
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Old Jan 22, 20, 10:57 pm
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Originally Posted by YWG-RO View Post
I think acquiring Air Transat will permit a degree of consolidation in route planning. I imagine we will eventually see A330s at Rouge.

Does AC go with more A330s, probably. Could they go with 787-10s, maybe since they’ll probably get a great deal from Boeing.

in terms of mainline 767s, they’ll use them as long as possible owing to MAX issue. The A223s can’t come quickly enough.

this summer could be unpleasant given recent news on the MAX.
I think it is still an open question how aircraft are going to be split between the AirTransat, Rouge and mainline fleet.

AirTransat needs to retire:
- 6 A310-300 (12/238)

Air Transat has:
- 16 A330-200 (12/aprox 320)
- 4 A330-300 (12/aprox 334)
- 15 A321LR (12/187) (most are on order and to be delivered).
- 14 A321 or A321neo
- 5 737-800

Perhaps keep the A310 around long than planned to deal with the MAX problems at mainline.

If they start to consolidate routes, there are few where the high density 777-300 may be a better fit. Some of the MAX transatlantic routes may be better served by a AirTransat configured widebody.

Basically everything is up in the air. In addition to that between the three banners, virtually every modern two egine widebody is in service other than the A350 and A330neo. They may be able to rational some of this.
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Old Jan 23, 20, 3:21 am
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Originally Posted by YWG-RO View Post
Air Transat.
The challenge with the Air Transat A330's is that they are generally not young either. The A332's range from 11.2 to 21.1 years old with the bulk in the later teens. The A333's are even older with all of them over 20 years except one.

The most interesting option with A321XLR's. Rouge could do the bulk of their flying with a large fleet of them - it would give them a fuel efficient bird with a reasonable CASM that would be very flexible and be able to do very thin routes. It would although further expansion to Europe in the summer months and allow AC to push further into northern South America in the winter months. Mainline could also take some instead of the Max 9 that no one is sure they are going to take. United recently ordered 50 after previously having placed very large Max orders - there was simply nothing else that could replace the 757's. Air Transat as already inducted the first 2 of 15 LR's which will give Transat (and likely AC) operational experience with a similar type very soon. It is replacing the A310 at Transat and could thus replace the 767 at Rouge.

Not suggesting this going to happen by any means, but if I were a route planner, and looking at what other airlines have ordered the XLR for, one has to think they would be looking closely at it.
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