Air Canada Rouge 767 Retirements

Old Feb 18, 2020, 8:43 pm
  #61  
 
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Originally Posted by ride red
Funny that they're retiring two of the 767s this year and none in 2021. I would have figured they'd be losing a few each year.
Two that they've announced as of right now. This is the 3rd batch of used 333's they've picked up in the last 18 months. I wouldn't preclude there being more if they could do so opportunistically. And with CX running RR power, and looking like it will be needing to cut capacity, opportunity may knock.
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Old Feb 19, 2020, 4:53 am
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QR could also be a source of relatively young airframes. They are retiring their fleet of 332s and 333s and they are configured with Trent engines so this could be a good fit for AC.
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Old Feb 19, 2020, 5:18 am
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Originally Posted by pitz
Nearly everything about "Tango" except charging a toonie for a can of pop was eventually incorporated back into mainline service standards.
The cost base at Tango was the same as AC, which is not the case for Rouge. The models are not the same. Rouge will carry on, either as a separate brand or folded into something with Transat. There is no evidence to support the idea that it will disappear.
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Old Feb 19, 2020, 5:20 am
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Originally Posted by jasdou
QR could also be a source of relatively young airframes. They are retiring their fleet of 332s and 333s and they are configured with Trent engines so this could be a good fit for AC.
QRs passenger A330s are GE powered, cargo are RR.
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Old Feb 19, 2020, 5:42 am
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Originally Posted by ChrisA330
QRs passenger A330s are GE powered, cargo are RR.
I stand corrected. Thanks.
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Old Feb 19, 2020, 8:44 am
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Originally Posted by EdmFlyBoi
The fleet plan seems to change quite frequently. Of the last two I was on, one was an ex-Hawaiian bird with the new bins and was in reasonable shape. The other was literally falling apart. I suspect there will be Rouge 767 retirements in 2021.
The only way I see that happening is if the Max is back at mainline, there are fleet / route efficiencies created by Transat purchase or a recession. Like the mainline 763s, these will probably fly until they economically make no sense to continue, which is probably a couple of more years for the oldest ones.
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Old Feb 20, 2020, 3:48 pm
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Ethiad announced today that they are dumping their 332 and from what I read, they use RR engines so could be a good fit
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Old Feb 20, 2020, 5:47 pm
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Originally Posted by YOWCDNFF
Ethiad announced today that they are dumping their 332 and from what I read, they use RR engines so could be a good fit
There are literally dozens if not hundreds of A332s and A333s on or coming on the market. Im not sure why AC needs to stick to RR engines. The rest of the wide body fleet is GE - GE90s and GEnX. If the A330 fleet is big enough, the maintenance that I assume is done only in Montreal, could be done where GE engines are serviced. Id be shocked if we dont start to see them in the Rouge fleet as it makes a huge amount of sense, especially A332s.
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Old Feb 20, 2020, 5:48 pm
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Originally Posted by YZF_Elite
The only way I see that happening is if the Max is back at mainline, there are fleet / route efficiencies created by Transat purchase or a recession. Like the mainline 763s, these will probably fly until they economically make no sense to continue, which is probably a couple of more years for the oldest ones.
The ones exiting the Rouge fleet are likely timing out in terms of hours/cycles. Others will follow.

Last edited by EdmFlyBoi; Feb 20, 2020 at 6:15 pm
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Old Feb 20, 2020, 5:54 pm
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Originally Posted by EdmFlyBoi
The ones exiting the Rouge fleet are likely timing out in terms of cycles. Others will follow.
Cycles? You sure its not hours? The AC 767 fleet had a pretty high hours to cycles ratio, and the 767-300ER's didn't do that many transcons in their time with AC, and only long transcons mostly.

IIRC, some of the retired ones were up at 120k+ hours.

There are literally dozens if not hundreds of A332’s and A333’s on or coming on the market. I’m not sure why AC needs to stick to RR engines.
The TS and AC infrastructure at YUL is all geared around the RB211 / Trent, and has been going back to the L-1011 days. So to bring oddballs into the fleet.... Same reason why the 320 fleet is all CFM56.
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Old Feb 20, 2020, 6:17 pm
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Originally Posted by pitz
Cycles? You sure its not hours? The AC 767 fleet had a pretty high hours to cycles ratio, and the 767-300ER's didn't do that many transcons in their time with AC, and only long transcons mostly.

IIRC, some of the retired ones were up at 120k+ hours.



The TS and AC infrastructure at YUL is all geared around the RB211 / Trent, and has been going back to the L-1011 days. So to bring oddballs into the fleet.... Same reason why the 320 fleet is all CFM56.
Yes correct - may be hours (post edited) - regardless they will time out and need to be retired. That's a fair comment about the RR engines. Taking on RR powered A330's has been the trend and will likely continue. They will likely take more on as there are a lot on the market with a low CapEx.
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Old Feb 20, 2020, 6:47 pm
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Wouldn't a Rouge-configured A330 have more seats than AC could comfortably fill year-round on the routes that they fly? Transat makes them work by only flying their routes once or twice a week, but that's not Rouge's business model. I expect that the 767s will be around for many more years -- if not all of the existing frames, then some less-used frames that AC picked up for next-to-nothing.
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Old Feb 20, 2020, 6:58 pm
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Originally Posted by StuMcIlwain
Wouldn't a Rouge-configured A330 have more seats than AC could comfortably fill year-round on the routes that they fly? Transat makes them work by only flying their routes once or twice a week, but that's not Rouge's business model. I expect that the 767s will be around for many more years -- if not all of the existing frames, then some less-used frames that AC picked up for next-to-nothing.
AC could configure an A332 to be just under 300 seats with 24-30 seats in Premium Rouge, which would be similar to the 767's

As indicated a few times, the 767's are going to time/cycle out. What used 767's are you referring to that are available? The largest 763 fleets are in North America. Delta and American's are as old as AC's and are being retired. United has refurbished most of their fleet and they are staying in service. Everything else has been gobbled up by the freight carriers, especially Amazon. There are very few 763's out there and there is competition for them. Not the case for A330's.
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Old Feb 20, 2020, 7:16 pm
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Yes, possibly. But if they switched to A332s, they'd have to buy a whole fleet of them from somewhere. They aren't going to invest a lot of money in Rouge; Rouge is all about doing things as cheaply as possible. The A333s will stay at the mainline as long as fuel prices remain relatively low since they work better for the YYZ to western Europe routes than the 787s do. My prediction (knowing nothing about running an airline and sitting in my armchair): Rouge keeps flying 767s until fuel prices spike, and then Air Canada dumps the planes along with the marginal overseas routes that they flew. Or maybe by then there will be used A321-XLRs available.
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Old Feb 20, 2020, 7:34 pm
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I can't imagine they'd deliberately choose a mixed RR / GE fleet when there's a decent supply of Rolls powered machines coming available - just no reason not to stick with one. I don't think the problem is so much maintenance or training - and overhauls are usually outsourced anyways - but more a matter of inventory. Even with leased spares, there would be a cost penalty to splitting the fleet.

The 763 fleet is a mix of Pratt and GE because the original AC and ex-CP birds had different powerplants, and then what was available on the market when they added to the fleet. The 330 fleet might grow to be as large as the 763's, but right now it's a smaller fleet, and I can't see splitting it if they don't have to.


Will be interesting to see how it shapes up. I'd be curious how much lower the trip cost is for an A330-200 on a typical TATL trip than an A330-300 - I'm not sure they wouldn't opt for the larger aircraft for lower seat-mile cost and fleet commonality.
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