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Equipment Change and loss of eUpgrade??

Equipment Change and loss of eUpgrade??

Old Sep 15, 19, 3:35 pm
  #1  
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Equipment Change and loss of eUpgrade??

So I don't know what thread this should belong in or if it deserves it's own thread....

Mrs QQ has a ticket YYZ-DUB/LHR-YYZ. YYZ-DUB was "P" and LHR-YYZ was "Y" and upgraded at time of booking (back in late June).

Today I received a call from AC Res saying that due to an equipment change (from 40J 77W to 28J 77W) Mrs QQ was being downgraded.

I don't agree with their priority for downgrading people. As far as I am concerned.... anyone that got their J seat whether it was cash, points, or eUpgrade after Jun 28th should lose their J seat first, and if they still need to downgrade after working their way through all J people backwards from today to the date she was confirmed then fine....

Of course the concierge says... "while I agree.... that is not how it works"

I know back in late June when the ticket was bought it was still J9+ and remained that way until recently when her flight slowly started filling up in J.

What do you all think???
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Old Sep 15, 19, 3:42 pm
  #2  
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First, I don't think the concierge agrees with you, I think they're just trying to get you off the phone.

Second, I don't agree that later paid J should be downgraded before paid Y. I do agree that in a lot of cases with Latitude bookings, the logic is "I'm only booking because I can confirm this upgrade right away", but there is an order for downgrades, and upgrades are naturally the first to go.

I think you should be offered a free change to any other flight with positive J space and a confirmed upgrade.

What flight did this happen to? I'm curious to see the loads.
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Old Sep 15, 19, 3:42 pm
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Originally Posted by yyz_atc_qq View Post
I don't agree with their priority for downgrading people. As far as I am concerned.... anyone that got their J seat whether it was cash, points, or eUpgrade after Jun 28th should lose their J seat first, and if they still need to downgrade after working their way through all J people backwards from today to the date she was confirmed then fine....


Uh, no. They're going to keep people who paid for their J seat in those seats before a confirmed eUp. When you have a "confirmed" eUp you still have your original ticket class / rules and AC has an absolute right to move you back in to that class of seat if they need to for any reason. Obviously they'd prefer not to, but they're going to do that before they pay out compensation for downgrading a revenue J passenger.
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Old Sep 15, 19, 5:00 pm
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They tried to do this to me a few years back as a SE on a PAID P ticket YYZ to London (and onto CPT). It was a 77W downgrade to a 763 and they insisted everyone else was a SE with a higher fare class They weren't even upfront about it, I only noticed after checking in and going to the oversize bag drop (I was bringing my bike to CPT for the Cycle Tour)

I went back to the desk and said they could rebook me on another carrier tomorrow or later that evening (through FRA and switch the second segment from BA to LH)

I suspect partially because my bags were already checked and I was insistent I wasn't boarding in Y, they ended up finding a J seat for me while I showered at the MLL... and there were several livid people who had paid J getting downgraded. Part of the issue for me was that they didn't offer CLEAR compensation. If they had said "here is a $500 or $1000 voucher for the downgrade" I probably would have been tempted but it was all "contact ticketing after your flight and they will refund the fare difference"

Back when the YYZ-HKG flights used to have issues (340-600 subbed down to 340-300 IIRC) they used to offer 15,000 miles when this happened to those with confirmed upgrades. Happened to mrs. mikeyyz twice. Are they offering ANY compensation?
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Old Sep 15, 19, 6:08 pm
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Originally Posted by mikeyyz View Post
I suspect partially because my bags were already checked and I was insistent I wasn't boarding in Y, they ended up finding a J seat for me while I showered at the MLL... and there were several livid people who had paid J getting downgraded. Part of the issue for me was that they didn't offer CLEAR compensation. If they had said "here is a $500 or $1000 voucher for the downgrade" I probably would have been tempted but it was all "contact ticketing after your flight and they will refund the fare difference"
First, this is a different issue because it's downgrading a ticket from the class of service it was booked in vs. downgrading to the originally booked/paid class. When a person is eUpgraded, the original fare basis remains the same. If they are later downgraded, no compensation is due besides return of the eUpgrade credits. AC may choose to offer other accommodation (such as changing to a different flight where the eUp can remain confirmed) as a goodwill gesture, but they aren't obliged to do so.

However, I agree with you - "fare difference" is not a reassuring form of compensation because months later when AC refund services responds, they are likely going to say "Dear Mr. mikeyyz, we have reviewed your case and found that the fare for the itinerary you flew, booked in full Y class, exceeds what you paid for your P fare, therefore no fare difference is owing". And you will likely have no way of proving the historical restricted economy fares that were available at the time you booked your P fare.
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Last edited by eigenvector; Sep 15, 19 at 6:13 pm
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Old Sep 15, 19, 6:44 pm
  #6  
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Originally Posted by canadiancow View Post
First, I don't think the concierge agrees with you, I think they're just trying to get you off the phone.


What flight did this happen to? I'm curious to see the loads.
Possibly....

AC849/16SEP
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Old Sep 15, 19, 7:05 pm
  #7  
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Originally Posted by canadiancow View Post
Second, I don't agree that later paid J should be downgraded before paid Y. I do agree that in a lot of cases with Latitude bookings, the logic is "I'm only booking because I can confirm this upgrade right away", but there is an order for downgrades, and upgrades are naturally the first to go.


I hope I don’t run afoul of a mod when I answer a 2nd part of your reply as a second post. I wanted to think more of an example and finally I have one that I hope I can make sense of.... it makes sense in my head....

So.... Let’s say.... 10 months in advance.... out of 40J seats (using a 40J 77W/L as example) 2 are gone to I class rewards, 6 are gone to various “paid” tickets.... 8/40 gone.... when you happened to book the latitude fare and confirmed the upgrade taking it to 9/40 gone. The flight slowly fills up with a combination of revenue and *perish the thought* additional I tickets.... the flight gets all the way to 32/40 full.... when 1 day before departure they sub in the 28J 77W.

Way back when.... 10 months ago.... you likely could have purchased a “P” but since your plans weren’t 100% at the time you paid the premium for a latitude fare, but also benefitted with the instant upgrade confirmation....

you feel that someone that managed to snag a J seat whether cash, or reward perhaps many months afterwards should have priority to the “confirmed” seat you got many months previous???

Again this isn’t about whether or not the order is being applied incorrectly.... it’s about whether or not it’s the best way to do it.

If.... they had downgraded the aircraft when it was at 27/40.... or even 28/40.... the upgrade wouldn’t have been lost. By downgrading at 29+/40 people are going to be mad.... and why shouldn’t people that have had a confirmed J seat potentially longer than someone else be mad.... and be entitled to their feelings....
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Old Sep 15, 19, 7:23 pm
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You're certainly entitled to your feelings, and they're valid.

I just don't think it's reasonable to downgrade paid J.

Be happy you were called about it. My one experience with this was a CRA to DH4 swap when I had a confirmed upgrade, and I didn't know until I walked on the plane (because my seat number didn't even change).

I'd been sitting in the MLL above a Tim's for 2-3 hours, and was expecting the snack on the flight to be my lunch. But I had no notification, so couldn't even go and buy anything. That was the reason I made Unofficial AC Schedule Change Notifier

But back to your flight, there are people with confirmed upgrades on it. I am curious about the priority. Day of departure status trumps fare class. But prior to that, a P25K on a Y fare has priority over a SE on a M fare.

I also don't know if this is done systematically, or if someone just says "oh damn we need to downgrade someone" and picks at random.
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Old Sep 15, 19, 7:49 pm
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Originally Posted by yyz_atc_qq View Post

Way back when.... 10 months ago.... you likely could have purchased a “P” but since your plans weren’t 100% at the time you paid the premium for a latitude fare, but also benefitted with the instant upgrade confirmation....

you feel that someone that managed to snag a J seat whether cash, or reward perhaps many months afterwards should have priority to the “confirmed” seat you got many months previous???.
You could have also purchased a flexible J class ticket if you needed the flexibility too. And yes, I also agree that someone who has paid for J (even in I class) should be prioritised over an eUpgrade in this situation.

Did AC offer to reaccomodate in J on another flight? Did you ask?
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Old Sep 15, 19, 7:51 pm
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Originally Posted by D582 View Post
You could have also purchased a flexible J class ticket if you needed the flexibility too. And yes, I also agree that someone who has paid for J (even in I class) should be prioritised over an eUpgrade in this situation.

Did AC offer to reaccomodate in J on another flight? Did you ask?
They did, but of course I couldn’t find MrsQQ to find out if she could take the later flight (I knew she couldn’t take either earlier).
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Old Sep 15, 19, 8:08 pm
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"I'm only booking because I can confirm this upgrade right away",
Originally Posted by canadiancow View Post
My one experience with this was a CRA to DH4 swap when I had a confirmed upgrade, and I didn't know until I walked on the plane (because my seat number didn't even change).
This has happened to me as well. Infuriating, especially when a paid-for preferred seat is no longer a preferred seat and you have to fight even to get a refund.

In any event, it is important to keep in mind that when AC says something is "confirmed" they do not use the word in the normal dictionary sense. In the AC dictionary it means "confirmed unless we decide to unconfirm it". In other words, you can never, ever trust anything AC tells you.
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Old Sep 15, 19, 8:34 pm
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Originally Posted by canadiancow View Post
You're certainly entitled to your feelings, and they're valid.


I offer a sincere thank you for likely the most civilized disagreement/agreement I’ve seen on FT in a long time!

if there was a bar close I’d say let me buy you a drink!
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Old Sep 16, 19, 12:30 am
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I was on 849 today. Latitude, upgraded at time of booking months ago. I had checked in and had BP but always keep an eye on the app, so noticed when it went to 28/28 booked in J. I didnt get a notification but the green check mark did disappear and I assumed as a E50MM I was at risk - and I don't play Aerolotto.
Anyway, called res and was able to switch to the 6pm flight (only 1.45 later) and keep the confirmed UG (note, flight was booked 28/40 with no-one on list) .
Not great but I can live with it. I have been surprised by how few upgrades there are on this route.
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Old Sep 16, 19, 8:03 am
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My similar experience was many years ago - I was on some sort of non-Y economy class fare, upgraded at least 2 months months in advance, and my
wife was on an AE J class ticket, YYZ-PVG. An equipment swap left the plane short of J seats, and we were selected for down-grading.
This was the only time I lost my temper with the concierges. We had no choice but to travel that day in Y, and I was fuming all the way.
I don't even recall what compensation was given, but I do remember the 12 hours of misery sitting in that seat.
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Old Sep 16, 19, 8:16 am
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Originally Posted by IluvSQ View Post
My similar experience was many years ago - I was on some sort of non-Y economy class fare, upgraded at least 2 months months in advance, and my
wife was on an AE J class ticket, YYZ-PVG. An equipment swap left the plane short of J seats, and we were selected for down-grading.
This was the only time I lost my temper with the concierges. We had no choice but to travel that day in Y, and I was fuming all the way.
I don't even recall what compensation was given, but I do remember the 12 hours of misery sitting in that seat.
It's odd that your wife was selected too for the downgrade when you would have been on different PNRs and her reservation would have been a J class (do you mean FULL J here?) ticket. Why wasn't she given the option to keep her business class seat, with only you going to the back?
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