Low TATL business fares

Old Aug 26, 19, 9:35 am
  #1  
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Low TATL business fares

What are the lowest RT or open-jaw TATL AC business class fares you have seen? Mine is $1800, ZRH-YUL-YYZ-ZRH. Also seen $2000 AMS-YYZ tickets, $2050 FCO-YYZ-LHR and $2200 ZRH-YYZ-MUC.

These are P fares (though I think the $1800 might have been on R or something lower than P).
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Old Aug 26, 19, 9:43 am
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$800 p

muc-yyz-sfo-yyz-muc

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Old Aug 26, 19, 11:17 am
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Please note that a number of posts have been deleted for personal invective which is contrary to FT Rules. Members are reminded to challenge a post with which they disagree in a friendly, helpful and collegial manner or, if unable to do so, report the post to a forum moderator to review.

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Old Aug 27, 19, 7:01 am
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Originally Posted by yyztozag View Post
What are the lowest RT or open-jaw TATL AC business class fares you have seen? Mine is $1800, ZRH-YUL-YYZ-ZRH. Also seen $2000 AMS-YYZ tickets, $2050 FCO-YYZ-LHR and $2200 ZRH-YYZ-MUC.

These are P fares (though I think the $1800 might have been on R or something lower than P).
What is interesting is that round trip fares that originate in Europe tend to be lower that those that originate in Canada. US origin fares also tend to be lower. AC is certainly trying to encourage sixth freedom traffic and for Europeans to choose AC when coming to Canada.
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Old Aug 27, 19, 7:26 am
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OP, the routes you mention are all from Europe to NA. Are you also asking about ex-North America? As pointed out above, it is generally cheaper to originate in Europe.

When the YYZ-AMS route started I got it for about $1400 CDN each way (P). I’ve done several other routes in the last couple of years (including this year) with each half being <2K when two travel together. Someone on FT indicated that they believed AC was matching a companion fare offered by the competition. Years ago I recall getting LHR during the summer for $800 each way (on a return tx).

The exception, for me, has been LHR. Since last summer I have been unable to get anything reasonable, even booking months in advance. I was watching this route for late fall 2019. It had been about $3200 for the outbound (on a return fare). It dropped to $2800. After the recent “fall sale” the outbound went up to about $5600, the return portion was similarly priced. The load didn’t seem to have changed. Being flexible with dates made no difference. Upgrades are also much harder to come by than in the past for this route.

Another data point — yesterday I saw a return fare Toronto to Narita in J for apx $2400 via Helsinki (Fin Air). Stopover in Helsinki possible.
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Old Aug 27, 19, 3:43 pm
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Originally Posted by Bartolo View Post
OP, the routes you mention are all from Europe to NA. Are you also asking about ex-North America? As pointed out above, it is generally cheaper to originate in Europe.

When the YYZ-AMS route started I got it for about $1400 CDN each way (P). I’ve done several other routes in the last couple of years (including this year) with each half being <2K when two travel together. Someone on FT indicated that they believed AC was matching a companion fare offered by the competition. Years ago I recall getting LHR during the summer for $800 each way (on a return tx).

The exception, for me, has been LHR. Since last summer I have been unable to get anything reasonable, even booking months in advance. I was watching this route for late fall 2019. It had been about $3200 for the outbound (on a return fare). It dropped to $2800. After the recent “fall sale” the outbound went up to about $5600, the return portion was similarly priced. The load didn’t seem to have changed. Being flexible with dates made no difference. Upgrades are also much harder to come by than in the past for this route.

Another data point — yesterday I saw a return fare Toronto to Narita in J for apx $2400 via Helsinki (Fin Air). Stopover in Helsinki possible.

They are much, much cheaper. It is not even rare to see ZRH or ZAG to YYZ for ~2800 CAD, and not with some stupid connection. Talking about direct from ZRH, and ideal connections from ZAG. Originating in YYZ it is quite rare to see normal flights to either ZRH or ZAG for under ~4000. There are exceptions though and I've seen it go as low as 2350 CAD.

EDIT: I am asking about literally any TATL fares booked on AC metal. Doesn't matter if the journey doesn't start or end in YYZ, or Canada for that matter.

Last edited by yyztozag; Aug 27, 19 at 3:44 pm Reason: answering previous question
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Old Aug 27, 19, 3:56 pm
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Originally Posted by EdmFlyBoi View Post
What is interesting is that round trip fares that originate in Europe tend to be lower that those that originate in Canada. US origin fares also tend to be lower. AC is certainly trying to encourage sixth freedom traffic and for Europeans to choose AC when coming to Canada.
100%. Most Canadians flying J on TATL AC are business travellers, hence "Business Class". Not always but usually. Well actually now it's Signature Class I guess :-)

The Canadian business travellers mostly have flight passes/agreements between AC and other companies and don't need low P fares to attract them. They're sold on AC no matter what. Meanwhile a European or even American traveller will more frequently use airlines like LH, OS, LX or UA and will need substantial reason to take AC. Usually Europeans (or Americans) who fly AC J pay at least a portion of their tix, and will end up on AC because of lower prices than EU carriers. Same goes for the reverse, where EU carriers will lower fares from YYZ to attract self-paying Canadian J customers.

Here's an example, looking at random dates (Oct10-Oct17) for YYZ-FRA, AC is ~5500 CAD in J. Meanwhile on FRA-YYZ on same dates, AC is ~2700 CAD, again in J.
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Old Aug 27, 19, 3:57 pm
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Strange ZRH would be a deal with the high amount of biz traffic.
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Old Aug 27, 19, 6:21 pm
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Originally Posted by yyztozag View Post
What are the lowest RT or open-jaw TATL AC business class fares you have seen? Mine is $1800, ZRH-YUL-YYZ-ZRH. Also seen $2000 AMS-YYZ tickets, $2050 FCO-YYZ-LHR and $2200 ZRH-YYZ-MUC.

These are P fares (though I think the $1800 might have been on R or something lower than P).
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Originally Posted by yyztozag View Post
They are much, much cheaper. It is not even rare to see ZRH or ZAG to YYZ for ~2800 CAD, and not with some stupid connection. Talking about direct from ZRH, and ideal connections from ZAG. Originating in YYZ it is quite rare to see normal flights to either ZRH or ZAG for under ~4000. There are exceptions though and I've seen it go as low as 2350 CAD.

EDIT: I am asking about literally any TATL fares booked on AC metal. Doesn't matter if the journey doesn't start or end in YYZ, or Canada for that matter.
Originally Posted by yyztozag View Post
.....Here's an example, looking at random dates (Oct10-Oct17) for YYZ-FRA, AC is ~5500 CAD in J. Meanwhile on FRA-YYZ on same dates, AC is ~2700 CAD, again in J.

I read all the posts in this thread including the ones that were deleted. I will admit I don't understand your question. And the title of the thread did not provide any specific info. Is this thread an effort to see if anyone has found lower fares than you? Are you wondering if all AC fares ex-Canada are higher than ex-Europe? And if AC fares ex-Europe are lower, then, well. ok, they are lower.

And if someone did find a lower fare ex-Europe like @canadiancow did, and we've all seen other examples, I'm not sure where that leads the thread.

Originally Posted by EdmFlyBoi View Post
What is interesting is that round trip fares that originate in Europe tend to be lower that those that originate in Canada. US origin fares also tend to be lower. .......
As is often seen on the FT Premium Fares thread.


There was one thread a while back with posts complaining about the extremely high fares on TATL routes from Canada and questions as to why. I think the simple answers are the JV and because AC can charge those fares.

For those who buy flight passes, or can start their outbound trip from Europe (whether it be on miles or tickets on another airline), they have the advantage because they are willing to position to the outbound European location. Not everyone can do that, many won't for whatever reason. Over the years, deals ex-CPH, ARN and DUB have popped up, in the same way that AC was selling USA-YYZ-XXX for thousands less than YYZ-XXX.
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Old Aug 28, 19, 2:18 am
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Originally Posted by 24left View Post
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I read all the posts in this thread including the ones that were deleted. I will admit I don't understand your question. And the title of the thread did not provide any specific info. Is this thread an effort to see if anyone has found lower fares than you? Are you wondering if all AC fares ex-Canada are higher than ex-Europe? And if AC fares ex-Europe are lower, then, well. ok, they are lower.

And if someone did find a lower fare ex-Europe like @canadiancow did, and we've all seen other examples, I'm not sure where that leads the thread.



As is often seen on the FT Premium Fares thread.


There was one thread a while back with posts complaining about the extremely high fares on TATL routes from Canada and questions as to why. I think the simple answers are the JV and because AC can charge those fares.

For those who buy flight passes, or can start their outbound trip from Europe (whether it be on miles or tickets on another airline), they have the advantage because they are willing to position to the outbound European location. Not everyone can do that, many won't for whatever reason. Over the years, deals ex-CPH, ARN and DUB have popped up, in the same way that AC was selling USA-YYZ-XXX for thousands less than YYZ-XXX.
It's just a thread asking readers what are the lowest TATL J fares they have seen. I'm aware that ex-EU fares are lower than ex-Canada, but that wasn't part of the question, it's just something that others brought up.
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Old Aug 28, 19, 2:21 am
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Originally Posted by jcamp028 View Post
Strange ZRH would be a deal with the high amount of biz traffic.
I would have thought the same but surprisingly most of the time I fly J it's ex-ZRH because of cheap fares I find, proximity to ZAG and proximity to skiing.
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Old Aug 28, 19, 4:27 am
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Originally Posted by yyztozag View Post
100%. Most Canadians flying J on TATL AC are business travellers, hence "Business Class". Not always but usually. Well actually now it's Signature Class I guess :-)

The Canadian business travellers mostly have flight passes/agreements between AC and other companies and don't need low P fares to attract them. They're sold on AC no matter what. Meanwhile a European or even American traveller will more frequently use airlines like LH, OS, LX or UA and will need substantial reason to take AC. Usually Europeans (or Americans) who fly AC J pay at least a portion of their tix, and will end up on AC because of lower prices than EU carriers. Same goes for the reverse, where EU carriers will lower fares from YYZ to attract self-paying Canadian J customers.

Here's an example, looking at random dates (Oct10-Oct17) for YYZ-FRA, AC is ~5500 CAD in J. Meanwhile on FRA-YYZ on same dates, AC is ~2700 CAD, again in J.
Note - Fares for the Star Alliance joint venture are harmonized across the JV - - and depending on starting market (EU/CA/US) the fares are determined by either LH/AC/UA respectively. So - there is no validity to say AC is actually less than the others because they are all using the same fare structure. However- AC does tend to have quite good P-Availability given the sheer number of TATL flights they operate.
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Old Aug 28, 19, 4:29 am
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Originally Posted by jcamp028 View Post
Strange ZRH would be a deal with the high amount of biz traffic.
Agree- And I am in Zurich. the fares ex-ZRH are the highest in Europe. The fares to Zurich are also not the cheapest. I am always fly through ZRH (my home base) to a third destination as possible under the fare rules. Current ticket is to Bordeaux - - going for the weekend next month.
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Old Aug 28, 19, 6:27 am
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Apologies, but I still don't understand your point.

Originally Posted by yyztozag View Post
It's just a thread asking readers what are the lowest TATL J fares they have seen......

I wrote this part of my previous post because I was unclear of the purpose of your questions about lowest fares others may have seen:

Originally Posted by 24left View Post
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I read all the posts in this thread including the ones that were deleted. I will admit I don't understand your question. And the title of the thread did not provide any specific info. Is this thread an effort to see if anyone has found lower fares than you? Are you wondering if all AC fares ex-Canada are higher than ex-Europe? And if AC fares ex-Europe are lower, then, well. ok, they are lower.

And if someone did find a lower fare ex-Europe like @canadiancow did, and we've all seen other examples, I'm not sure where that leads the thread.
.......

Here's the thing. The lowest fare last week might have been different than the lowest fare last month, 6 months ago or last year, during low season and during typical busy times.

When you asked what the lowest fares others may have seen, there were no parameters or benchmarks / reference points or a time window. @canadiancow paid $800 for his trip as posted upthread. But you didn't ask when he bought it. Others here may have paid $4,000 for the same, or $3,000 on AC to/from CDG, or MUC or....

I appreciate you wanted to have a conversation about AC fares on TATL routes, but there will always be someone who paid significantly less and what is missing in your question is a timeframe. IMHO.
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