CBC Article - Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned
Aug 19, 2019, 5:51 pm
#151
Join Date: Jan 2007
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I feel like we have heard Air Canada's position. They were angry and didn't follow instructions.
The question is whether or not they were being told to do something that was either impossible or required them to become adversarial with another passenger.
That isn't my position, that is just my recollection of something that might have been posted a decade ago.
The question is whether or not they were being told to do something that was either impossible or required them to become adversarial with another passenger.
Sorry, but I think it's worth a couple minutes of pilot time before a customer is banned for life. It might not be very important to the employees (beyond the involved FA being able to gloat and reflect on how important she must be with all that power to use solely at her discretion), but it can be very significant for the passenger.
Aug 19, 2019, 6:10 pm
#152
Join Date: Aug 2008
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"Constantin and Paun can try to get their flying ban lifted by writing Air Canada and promising they won't behave badly again. Constantin said she won't be doing that because they have no future plans to fly with the airline."
Sign the undertaking, return it to AC, ban lifted.
Sign the undertaking, return it to AC, ban lifted.
Seems a bit of cutting of the old nose to spite the face though in not signing it (and I get it, they likely don't want to fly AC today, but they may have to...work reasons, any kind actually).
I think their 15 minutes of fame is winding down.
Aug 19, 2019, 6:18 pm
#153
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And beyond that, I suspect the letter AC wants signed includes a statement along the lines of "I acknowledge that I knowingly disobeyed lawful directives from the crew". Signing that would be an admission of another criminal act. And generally it's a bad idea to admit to breaking the law when you truly believe you did not.
Aug 19, 2019, 7:09 pm
#154
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I have no problem with lifetime bans if someone is truly endangering the flight, their fellow passengers and crew. This does not appear to be one of those circumstances. You don't use a shotgun to kill a fly.
Aug 19, 2019, 7:24 pm
#155
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Its not clear to me if the captain has the authority to ban them for more than a particular flight. But the aircraft is "theirs". Until the language changes to "Managing Pilot", misbehaving PAX and beancounting airline managers can suck it.
A lifetime ban is too much for this incident.
A lifetime ban is too much for this incident.
Aug 19, 2019, 11:42 pm
#156
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: NYC
Programs: UA
Posts: 444
One thing that is problematic for the passengers is that the story as reported to the media is quite different than the one the daughter posted on facebook. — and reddit.
from the Facebook post:
My mom and I were traveling back home to Montreal, Canada from Bucharest, Romania (we are Canadians) with Air Canada Rouge (flight AC 1929 on July 31st). Our flight was scheduled to leave at 1:05 pm Romania time. We arrived at the airport with plenty of time to spare and we were one of the firsts to board the plane. Bucharest has a small airport with limited check-in counters and online check-in is not possible, so it was a bit of a mess and people were getting checked-in very late. Around 1 pm, people were still just walking into the plane. Many families with children were not seated together so flight attendants were moving people around for those families to sit together. My mom then got tired of waiting for take-off (flight was delayed by 1.5 hours at that time) and went to the bathroom.
There were 3 seats in front of where my mom and I were sitting and they needed to move those people so they could seat someone else. They wanted to move one of the men in my seat and put me in my old seat (since I was already moved once). The man did not want my seat because it was a middle seat and I said I have nowhere to move because there was already someone in my seat (first there was a child there, then they put a man there). It was just a huge mess. I said I will wait for my mom to get out of the bathroom and we can be seated somewhere else. The flight attendant immediately got angry, began asking why my mom was taking so long in the bathroom (even though it had been about 5 minutes) and told me we were being uncooperative and she will de-plane us. I went to knock on the bathroom door, told my mom to come out because the FA wants to take us off the plane. When I got back to my seat, the FA said she spoke to the pilot. She told him my mom was in the bathroom for 30 minutes, that she is visibly sick (she was not, just needed to use the bathroom) and cannot fly and that I am uncooperative and is causing the entire flight to be delayed (the flight was already delayed by 1.5 hours I do not think it’s right to blame us for the entire flight’s delay). Another FA told me she cannot bear to look at me for 9 hours.
I of course did not want to get off I was confused as to how we got to such a harsh decision and wanted explanations. The FA called the police and we had to get off.
We spent the entire day in the airport trying to get on another flight home. Air Canada customer support said there is nothing they can do, that we have to speak to an Air Canada employee in the airport (there is no Air Canada counter in Bucharest, there was no one to speak to). We then called Lufthansa (since we bought our ticket through them), they said it is the responsibility of the company who kicked us off. So nothing was resolved the first day.
The second day, we went back to the airport, but they insisted they cannot do anything. We called Air Canada again and they said they cannot help since it is a ticket issued by Lufthansa. Lufthansa (on the second day) said in their system, it shows that we were never taken off the flight. So to them, it looks as though we are in Montreal. They said Air Canada did not report them taking off passengers so they can’t do anything.
My mom and I are still in Romania and we just want to be put on a flight back. Everyone is telling us something different and we cannot understand how this can happen. Yes, seating arrangements were chaotic and I shouldn’t have said I will wait for my mom to come back before moving but is that enough reason to kick passengers off? Because they didn’t follow a FA’s instructions fast enough? And even then, is that reason to not book them on another flight? At this point we are thinking of buying new flights but they are about 4 000$ for 2 people. We really have to be home before August 5th. Is it possible for us to get compensation back if we buy a new flight? What are our rights? And it’s not just the costs of another flight, we had to pay transportation to and from the airport 5 times now, roaming charges to call Air Canada, hotels, etc.
from the Facebook post:
My mom and I were traveling back home to Montreal, Canada from Bucharest, Romania (we are Canadians) with Air Canada Rouge (flight AC 1929 on July 31st). Our flight was scheduled to leave at 1:05 pm Romania time. We arrived at the airport with plenty of time to spare and we were one of the firsts to board the plane. Bucharest has a small airport with limited check-in counters and online check-in is not possible, so it was a bit of a mess and people were getting checked-in very late. Around 1 pm, people were still just walking into the plane. Many families with children were not seated together so flight attendants were moving people around for those families to sit together. My mom then got tired of waiting for take-off (flight was delayed by 1.5 hours at that time) and went to the bathroom.
There were 3 seats in front of where my mom and I were sitting and they needed to move those people so they could seat someone else. They wanted to move one of the men in my seat and put me in my old seat (since I was already moved once). The man did not want my seat because it was a middle seat and I said I have nowhere to move because there was already someone in my seat (first there was a child there, then they put a man there). It was just a huge mess. I said I will wait for my mom to get out of the bathroom and we can be seated somewhere else. The flight attendant immediately got angry, began asking why my mom was taking so long in the bathroom (even though it had been about 5 minutes) and told me we were being uncooperative and she will de-plane us. I went to knock on the bathroom door, told my mom to come out because the FA wants to take us off the plane. When I got back to my seat, the FA said she spoke to the pilot. She told him my mom was in the bathroom for 30 minutes, that she is visibly sick (she was not, just needed to use the bathroom) and cannot fly and that I am uncooperative and is causing the entire flight to be delayed (the flight was already delayed by 1.5 hours I do not think it’s right to blame us for the entire flight’s delay). Another FA told me she cannot bear to look at me for 9 hours.
I of course did not want to get off I was confused as to how we got to such a harsh decision and wanted explanations. The FA called the police and we had to get off.
We spent the entire day in the airport trying to get on another flight home. Air Canada customer support said there is nothing they can do, that we have to speak to an Air Canada employee in the airport (there is no Air Canada counter in Bucharest, there was no one to speak to). We then called Lufthansa (since we bought our ticket through them), they said it is the responsibility of the company who kicked us off. So nothing was resolved the first day.
The second day, we went back to the airport, but they insisted they cannot do anything. We called Air Canada again and they said they cannot help since it is a ticket issued by Lufthansa. Lufthansa (on the second day) said in their system, it shows that we were never taken off the flight. So to them, it looks as though we are in Montreal. They said Air Canada did not report them taking off passengers so they can’t do anything.
My mom and I are still in Romania and we just want to be put on a flight back. Everyone is telling us something different and we cannot understand how this can happen. Yes, seating arrangements were chaotic and I shouldn’t have said I will wait for my mom to come back before moving but is that enough reason to kick passengers off? Because they didn’t follow a FA’s instructions fast enough? And even then, is that reason to not book them on another flight? At this point we are thinking of buying new flights but they are about 4 000$ for 2 people. We really have to be home before August 5th. Is it possible for us to get compensation back if we buy a new flight? What are our rights? And it’s not just the costs of another flight, we had to pay transportation to and from the airport 5 times now, roaming charges to call Air Canada, hotels, etc.
Aug 20, 2019, 7:14 am
#157
Join Date: Jun 2016
Programs: air miles
Posts: 282
One thing that is problematic for the passengers is that the story as reported to the media is quite different than the one the daughter posted on facebook. — and reddit.
from the Facebook post:
My mom and I were traveling back home to Montreal, Canada from Bucharest, Romania (we are Canadians) with Air Canada Rouge (flight AC 1929 on July 31st). Our flight was scheduled to leave at 1:05 pm Romania time. We arrived at the airport with plenty of time to spare and we were one of the firsts to board the plane. Bucharest has a small airport with limited check-in counters and online check-in is not possible, so it was a bit of a mess and people were getting checked-in very late. Around 1 pm, people were still just walking into the plane. Many families with children were not seated together so flight attendants were moving people around for those families to sit together. My mom then got tired of waiting for take-off (flight was delayed by 1.5 hours at that time) and went to the bathroom.
There were 3 seats in front of where my mom and I were sitting and they needed to move those people so they could seat someone else. They wanted to move one of the men in my seat and put me in my old seat (since I was already moved once). The man did not want my seat because it was a middle seat and I said I have nowhere to move because there was already someone in my seat (first there was a child there, then they put a man there). It was just a huge mess. I said I will wait for my mom to get out of the bathroom and we can be seated somewhere else. The flight attendant immediately got angry, began asking why my mom was taking so long in the bathroom (even though it had been about 5 minutes) and told me we were being uncooperative and she will de-plane us. I went to knock on the bathroom door, told my mom to come out because the FA wants to take us off the plane. When I got back to my seat, the FA said she spoke to the pilot. She told him my mom was in the bathroom for 30 minutes, that she is visibly sick (she was not, just needed to use the bathroom) and cannot fly and that I am uncooperative and is causing the entire flight to be delayed (the flight was already delayed by 1.5 hours I do not think it’s right to blame us for the entire flight’s delay). Another FA told me she cannot bear to look at me for 9 hours.
I of course did not want to get off I was confused as to how we got to such a harsh decision and wanted explanations. The FA called the police and we had to get off.
We spent the entire day in the airport trying to get on another flight home. Air Canada customer support said there is nothing they can do, that we have to speak to an Air Canada employee in the airport (there is no Air Canada counter in Bucharest, there was no one to speak to). We then called Lufthansa (since we bought our ticket through them), they said it is the responsibility of the company who kicked us off. So nothing was resolved the first day.
The second day, we went back to the airport, but they insisted they cannot do anything. We called Air Canada again and they said they cannot help since it is a ticket issued by Lufthansa. Lufthansa (on the second day) said in their system, it shows that we were never taken off the flight. So to them, it looks as though we are in Montreal. They said Air Canada did not report them taking off passengers so they can’t do anything.
My mom and I are still in Romania and we just want to be put on a flight back. Everyone is telling us something different and we cannot understand how this can happen. Yes, seating arrangements were chaotic and I shouldn’t have said I will wait for my mom to come back before moving but is that enough reason to kick passengers off? Because they didn’t follow a FA’s instructions fast enough? And even then, is that reason to not book them on another flight? At this point we are thinking of buying new flights but they are about 4 000$ for 2 people. We really have to be home before August 5th. Is it possible for us to get compensation back if we buy a new flight? What are our rights? And it’s not just the costs of another flight, we had to pay transportation to and from the airport 5 times now, roaming charges to call Air Canada, hotels, etc.
from the Facebook post:
My mom and I were traveling back home to Montreal, Canada from Bucharest, Romania (we are Canadians) with Air Canada Rouge (flight AC 1929 on July 31st). Our flight was scheduled to leave at 1:05 pm Romania time. We arrived at the airport with plenty of time to spare and we were one of the firsts to board the plane. Bucharest has a small airport with limited check-in counters and online check-in is not possible, so it was a bit of a mess and people were getting checked-in very late. Around 1 pm, people were still just walking into the plane. Many families with children were not seated together so flight attendants were moving people around for those families to sit together. My mom then got tired of waiting for take-off (flight was delayed by 1.5 hours at that time) and went to the bathroom.
There were 3 seats in front of where my mom and I were sitting and they needed to move those people so they could seat someone else. They wanted to move one of the men in my seat and put me in my old seat (since I was already moved once). The man did not want my seat because it was a middle seat and I said I have nowhere to move because there was already someone in my seat (first there was a child there, then they put a man there). It was just a huge mess. I said I will wait for my mom to get out of the bathroom and we can be seated somewhere else. The flight attendant immediately got angry, began asking why my mom was taking so long in the bathroom (even though it had been about 5 minutes) and told me we were being uncooperative and she will de-plane us. I went to knock on the bathroom door, told my mom to come out because the FA wants to take us off the plane. When I got back to my seat, the FA said she spoke to the pilot. She told him my mom was in the bathroom for 30 minutes, that she is visibly sick (she was not, just needed to use the bathroom) and cannot fly and that I am uncooperative and is causing the entire flight to be delayed (the flight was already delayed by 1.5 hours I do not think it’s right to blame us for the entire flight’s delay). Another FA told me she cannot bear to look at me for 9 hours.
I of course did not want to get off I was confused as to how we got to such a harsh decision and wanted explanations. The FA called the police and we had to get off.
We spent the entire day in the airport trying to get on another flight home. Air Canada customer support said there is nothing they can do, that we have to speak to an Air Canada employee in the airport (there is no Air Canada counter in Bucharest, there was no one to speak to). We then called Lufthansa (since we bought our ticket through them), they said it is the responsibility of the company who kicked us off. So nothing was resolved the first day.
The second day, we went back to the airport, but they insisted they cannot do anything. We called Air Canada again and they said they cannot help since it is a ticket issued by Lufthansa. Lufthansa (on the second day) said in their system, it shows that we were never taken off the flight. So to them, it looks as though we are in Montreal. They said Air Canada did not report them taking off passengers so they can’t do anything.
My mom and I are still in Romania and we just want to be put on a flight back. Everyone is telling us something different and we cannot understand how this can happen. Yes, seating arrangements were chaotic and I shouldn’t have said I will wait for my mom to come back before moving but is that enough reason to kick passengers off? Because they didn’t follow a FA’s instructions fast enough? And even then, is that reason to not book them on another flight? At this point we are thinking of buying new flights but they are about 4 000$ for 2 people. We really have to be home before August 5th. Is it possible for us to get compensation back if we buy a new flight? What are our rights? And it’s not just the costs of another flight, we had to pay transportation to and from the airport 5 times now, roaming charges to call Air Canada, hotels, etc.
Aug 20, 2019, 9:08 am
#158
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 492
And so the story morphs. Did AC staff overreact? Yuuup! But I stand by my opinion. Had she a) dealt with her assigned seat which was occupied at the time she found it occupied or b) given up the seat and asked the FA to assist her with finding her an empty seat she probably flies home that day.
Aug 20, 2019, 11:58 am
#159
Join Date: May 2006
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AC made the choice to remove them from the original flight. Both AC's explanation and the passengers' explanation suggest that they weren't violent or so obnoxious that carrying them back the next day, when cooler heads prevailed, wasn't the best option. If they wanted to ban them, regardless of whether it was an overreaction, they needed to do so after getting them home.
"For cause" is still AC's choice, and they still have a contract to carry them.
Victim blaming is so fashionable on this forum.
"For cause" is still AC's choice, and they still have a contract to carry them.
And so the story morphs. Did AC staff overreact? Yuuup! But I stand by my opinion. Had she a) dealt with her assigned seat which was occupied at the time she found it occupied or b) given up the seat and asked the FA to assist her with finding her an empty seat she probably flies home that day.
Aug 20, 2019, 12:19 pm
#160
Join Date: Aug 2012
Programs: AC E35K, NEXUS
Posts: 4,368
I have been just following the thread and agreeing with the position that FA overreacted in the whole "ban" thing, and that the reported manner of notification to the passenger (by mail) was inadequate.
I also agree with the posts that suggest in hindsight that the passengers should have minded their own business and asserted their documented seat assignments. (It's possible the offending random child that "needed" the seat was assigned a seat nearby but not near enough its mom. Or that it should just get back onto the lap it belonged on. Once everyone is in their documented seats as per the BP, then you can try to horse-trade.)
But at this point, the daughter's posts seem so helpless and lacking resourcefulness. Since LH direct ticket is just getting them routed back through the immovable object that AC has become to them, why don't they reposition (by rail, if necessary) to a different hub and fly on a different alliance that hasn't read the papers?
I also agree with the posts that suggest in hindsight that the passengers should have minded their own business and asserted their documented seat assignments. (It's possible the offending random child that "needed" the seat was assigned a seat nearby but not near enough its mom. Or that it should just get back onto the lap it belonged on. Once everyone is in their documented seats as per the BP, then you can try to horse-trade.)
But at this point, the daughter's posts seem so helpless and lacking resourcefulness. Since LH direct ticket is just getting them routed back through the immovable object that AC has become to them, why don't they reposition (by rail, if necessary) to a different hub and fly on a different alliance that hasn't read the papers?
Aug 20, 2019, 12:20 pm
#161
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: YYC
Posts: 23,791
But at this point, the daughter's posts seem so helpless and lacking resourcefulness. Since LH direct ticket is just getting them routed back through the immovable object that AC has become to them, why don't they reposition (by rail, if necessary) to a different hub and fly on a different alliance that hasn't read the papers?
But also, why didn't LH move them to an LH flight?
Aug 20, 2019, 12:26 pm
#162
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 492
I have been just following the thread and agreeing with the position that FA overreacted in the whole "ban" thing, and that the reported manner of notification to the passenger (by mail) was inadequate.
I also agree with the posts that suggest in hindsight that the passengers should have minded their own business and asserted their documented seat assignments. (It's possible the offending random child that "needed" the seat was assigned a seat nearby but not near enough its mom. Or that it should just get back onto the lap it belonged on. Once everyone is in their documented seats as per the BP, then you can try to horse-trade.)
But at this point, the daughter's posts seem so helpless and lacking resourcefulness. Since LH direct ticket is just getting them routed back through the immovable object that AC has become to them, why don't they reposition (by rail, if necessary) to a different hub and fly on a different alliance that hasn't read the papers?
I also agree with the posts that suggest in hindsight that the passengers should have minded their own business and asserted their documented seat assignments. (It's possible the offending random child that "needed" the seat was assigned a seat nearby but not near enough its mom. Or that it should just get back onto the lap it belonged on. Once everyone is in their documented seats as per the BP, then you can try to horse-trade.)
But at this point, the daughter's posts seem so helpless and lacking resourcefulness. Since LH direct ticket is just getting them routed back through the immovable object that AC has become to them, why don't they reposition (by rail, if necessary) to a different hub and fly on a different alliance that hasn't read the papers?
Folk on this forum wouldn’t have gotten into this pickle, wouldn’t have been kicked off even if a bit noisy and even if they were would have got themselves home likely an hour faster and in J. And got compensation.
Aug 20, 2019, 12:42 pm
#163
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC SEMM / HH Diamond
Posts: 3,151
Its not clear to me if the captain has the authority to ban them for more than a particular flight. But the aircraft is "theirs". Until the language changes to "Managing Pilot", misbehaving PAX and beancounting airline managers can suck it.
A lifetime ban is too much for this incident.
A lifetime ban is too much for this incident.
At that point, it's most likely that the semi-secret entity known as AC corporate security made the banning decision - and likely did so with almost no additional information beyond the fact that "the flight crew wanted these passengers off the plane".
If I do not appear to be a fan of the exciting party crew known as "AC corporate security", it's because the processes they follow are arbitrary, shrouded in secrecy, and driven by a view of history that does not always match the actual facts.
I'm confident that AC corp sec are doing what they believe is the right thing for the airline - and I'm equally confident that they have to deal with a long list of people who are truly deserving of lifetime bans. However, the legal system (developed over many many years with lots of mistakes and subsequent learnings) has evolved a pretty balanced & reasoned approach to "justice" - for example, hearing both sides of an argument before making a decision, etc.
AC corp sec doesn't seem to bother with any of that.
And yes, that does tilt my view in favor of the passengers in this case.
Aug 20, 2019, 1:08 pm
#164
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC SEMM / HH Diamond
Posts: 3,151
And so the story morphs. Did AC staff overreact? Yuuup! But I stand by my opinion. Had she a) dealt with her assigned seat which was occupied at the time she found it occupied or b) given up the seat and asked the FA to assist her with finding her an empty seat she probably flies home that day.
In this case, did the mother & daughter follow every rule and exhibit best practice behaviors after boarding? No, almost certainly they did not.
Did they do anything that warrented removing them from the flight? Not that I can see.
It sounds like the entire boarding process was a cluster-truck, with multiple people trying to switch seats onboard .... and it's not hard to imagine that the cabin crew were growing frustrated with the process, and the passengers, and the whole mess. My best interpretation of the events is that the daughter in question was "going with the flow" (the flow in this case being a complete free-for-all), she probably responded to the cabin crews request with an edge in her voice that was unnecessary ... and before she knew it, the crew overreacted and threw her and her mom off the plane.
The problem is that the daughter and her mom are infrequent travellers - while the cabin crew are trained professionals who should have controlled the entire boarding process better in the first place, should have reacted better when problems started to arise, and should not have been the ones to overreact out of frustration.
The cabin crew were well within their rights to gossip amongst themselves after the fact about those idiot passengers. It can be a sucky job and it's not one that I would wish for. I have not heard a single piece of evidence that convinces me that they did the right thing by removing these passengers from the plane.
Aug 20, 2019, 5:16 pm
#165
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: YXU
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