CBC Article - Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned
Aug 19, 2019, 11:49 am
#121
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Vancouver
Programs: Aeroplan, Mileage Plus, WestJet Gold, AMEX Plat
Posts: 2,026
But then the FA would still have needed either to evict the child from the daughter's seat (and find suitable reseating for that mother and child) or find some other empty seat for the mother, and this FA didn't seem inclined to do anything but order the duaghter to return to her assigned seat that was occupied by someone else.
Aug 19, 2019, 12:10 pm
#122
Join Date: Jun 2016
Programs: air miles
Posts: 283
And you believe that only AC staff are capable of manipulating their version of the events to serve their purposes and make themselves looks like the only civil person in the story.
Was it ...... of AC to send a ban letter via lettermail while they were stuck in Europe. Abso....inglutely.
Was it ...... of AC to send a ban letter via lettermail while they were stuck in Europe. Abso....inglutely.
Aug 19, 2019, 12:24 pm
#123
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC*SE 2MM
Posts: 16,649
I'm not sure which article you read, but this sounds like the pax were at fault and got kicked off the flight, by police.
Then AC screwed up and basically banned them without letting them know, stating they could book a flight the next day and then subsequently denying them boarding in FRA from a BUD-FRA-YUL flight. And not issuing a refund. If they were not going to be able to board AC flights in the future that should have been abundantly clear right away.
Then AC screwed up and basically banned them without letting them know, stating they could book a flight the next day and then subsequently denying them boarding in FRA from a BUD-FRA-YUL flight. And not issuing a refund. If they were not going to be able to board AC flights in the future that should have been abundantly clear right away.
If I were in AC management I'd be taking a careful look at the processes I have in place in the name of "security".
Aug 19, 2019, 12:25 pm
#124
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: SFO
Programs: AC SE MM, BA Gold, SQ Silver, Bonvoy Tit LTG, Hyatt Glob, HH Diamond
Posts: 44,323
The airline appears to have made a snap decision within less than 24 hours, after presumably having heard only one side of the story, to ban a customer for life from that airline for a first offence of refusing the order of a flight attendant during what sounds like a pretty chaotic boarding process.
An order which by all accounts was impossible to comply with.
Aug 19, 2019, 1:02 pm
#125
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Halifax
Programs: AC SE100K, Marriott Lifetime Platinum Elite. NEXUS
Posts: 4,568
What we know is the daughter says someone told them a seat was "needed" by a "child". We don't know if it was actually assigned to the child. Or, for that matter, if it actually happened. Moving from a middle seat sitting next to a child to a middle seat next to someone you know, forward on the aircraft, is hardly a selfish act.
But that suspicious selfish act aside, a seat maybe having a child in it... it isn't impossible to return to. It doesn't require a grown woman to ask her mother. It doesn't require interjecting into an unrelated conflict.
Daughter had no rights to the seat she was in. Possession is not 9/10ths of the law. When you are caught in a seat that is not your own, you get up, apologize, and move to the seat you are assigned. Full stop.
If then you find out there is someone there, you deal with it. You don't need to sit on the alleged child. You then engage the FA as the PAX whose seat you stole engaged to deal with you.
Its almost as if the airlines have conceived of this arguing PAX problem and come up with a solution of "assigned seats".
But that suspicious selfish act aside, a seat maybe having a child in it... it isn't impossible to return to. It doesn't require a grown woman to ask her mother. It doesn't require interjecting into an unrelated conflict.
Daughter had no rights to the seat she was in. Possession is not 9/10ths of the law. When you are caught in a seat that is not your own, you get up, apologize, and move to the seat you are assigned. Full stop.
If then you find out there is someone there, you deal with it. You don't need to sit on the alleged child. You then engage the FA as the PAX whose seat you stole engaged to deal with you.
Its almost as if the airlines have conceived of this arguing PAX problem and come up with a solution of "assigned seats".
Aug 19, 2019, 1:27 pm
#126
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: SFO
Programs: AC SE MM, BA Gold, SQ Silver, Bonvoy Tit LTG, Hyatt Glob, HH Diamond
Posts: 44,323
What we know is the daughter says someone told them a seat was "needed" by a "child". We don't know if it was actually assigned to the child. Or, for that matter, if it actually happened. Moving from a middle seat sitting next to a child to a middle seat next to someone you know, forward on the aircraft, is hardly a selfish act.
But that suspicious selfish act aside, a seat maybe having a child in it... it isn't impossible to return to. It doesn't require a grown woman to ask her mother. It doesn't require interjecting into an unrelated conflict.
Daughter had no rights to the seat she was in. Possession is not 9/10ths of the law. When you are caught in a seat that is not your own, you get up, apologize, and move to the seat you are assigned. Full stop.
If then you find out there is someone there, you deal with it. You don't need to sit on the alleged child. You then engage the FA as the PAX whose seat you stole engaged to deal with you.
Its almost as if the airlines have conceived of this arguing PAX problem and come up with a solution of "assigned seats".
But that suspicious selfish act aside, a seat maybe having a child in it... it isn't impossible to return to. It doesn't require a grown woman to ask her mother. It doesn't require interjecting into an unrelated conflict.
Daughter had no rights to the seat she was in. Possession is not 9/10ths of the law. When you are caught in a seat that is not your own, you get up, apologize, and move to the seat you are assigned. Full stop.
If then you find out there is someone there, you deal with it. You don't need to sit on the alleged child. You then engage the FA as the PAX whose seat you stole engaged to deal with you.
Its almost as if the airlines have conceived of this arguing PAX problem and come up with a solution of "assigned seats".
I've had enough encounters with stupid agents (eg https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/25898490-post1.html) that I just don't know how I'd behave here. In that linked example, walking away was always an option if things had become too heated. But on a plane when you're trying to explain that your seat is occupied but the FA is having none of it and telling you to sit there anyway... what do you do?
Aug 19, 2019, 1:37 pm
#127
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: YYC
Posts: 23,803
I've had enough encounters with stupid agents (eg https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/25898490-post1.html) that I just don't know how I'd behave here. In that linked example, walking away was always an option if things had become too heated. But on a plane when you're trying to explain that your seat is occupied but the FA is having none of it and telling you to sit there anyway... what do you do?
You go back to your seat, try to tell the person sitting there it's not her seat, and if that person does not frees the seat up, you stand in the aisle until the FA comes along and deals with the situation. But arguing with the FA that you cannot is easy to interpret as refusing, especially given that the woman was clearly not terribly interested in returning to her seat.
Aug 19, 2019, 1:44 pm
#128
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: SFO
Programs: AC SE MM, BA Gold, SQ Silver, Bonvoy Tit LTG, Hyatt Glob, HH Diamond
Posts: 44,323
You go back to your seat, try to tell the person sitting there it's not her seat, and if that person does not frees the seat up, you stand in the aisle until the FA comes along and deals with the situation. But arguing with the FA that you cannot is easy to interpret as refusing, especially given that the woman was clearly not terribly interested in returning to her seat.
She had already alerted the FA to the issue with her seat. Rather than standing in the aisle blocking everything and waiting for an FA to approach (that seems like a bizarre suggestion), she proactively told the FA what the problem was, and rather than dealing with that problem, the FA had them kicked off.
Did these two do exactly what I would have done? No. But I see nothing even remotely wrong with what they did. Try to use the assigned seats. When one is occupied, take an equivalent (middle) empty seat. When that one becomes needed, tell the FA that yours is occupied.
Perfectly acceptable course of action.
Aug 19, 2019, 1:44 pm
#129
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 17,451
You go back to your seat, try to tell the person sitting there it's not her seat, and if that person does not frees the seat up, you stand in the aisle until the FA comes along and deals with the situation. But arguing with the FA that you cannot is easy to interpret as refusing, especially given that the woman was clearly not terribly interested in returning to her seat.
Oh, and whatever you do, however it turns out, keep flying AC. Because they've proven over and over again what a reliable travel partner they are.
Aug 19, 2019, 1:47 pm
#130
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: YYC
Posts: 23,803
"So I said ok I will move but where, since there is a child in my seat."
She had already alerted the FA to the issue with her seat. Rather than standing in the aisle blocking everything and waiting for an FA to approach (that seems like a bizarre suggestion), she proactively told the FA what the problem was, and rather than dealing with that problem, the FA had them kicked off.
Did these two do exactly what I would have done? No. But I see nothing even remotely wrong with what they did. Try to use the assigned seats. When one is occupied, take an equivalent (middle) empty seat. When that one becomes needed, tell the FA that yours is occupied.
Perfectly acceptable course of action.
She had already alerted the FA to the issue with her seat. Rather than standing in the aisle blocking everything and waiting for an FA to approach (that seems like a bizarre suggestion), she proactively told the FA what the problem was, and rather than dealing with that problem, the FA had them kicked off.
Did these two do exactly what I would have done? No. But I see nothing even remotely wrong with what they did. Try to use the assigned seats. When one is occupied, take an equivalent (middle) empty seat. When that one becomes needed, tell the FA that yours is occupied.
Perfectly acceptable course of action.
But to what extent is that story is, shall be say, embellished? That sounded like an excuse for refusing.
Aug 19, 2019, 1:50 pm
#131
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: YYC
Posts: 23,803
As long as it's $0.50 cheaper, (or appears to be so) people will continue flying AC anyway. Except if banned of course... But back to the issue, in the current scenario until proven otherwsie I give the crew the benefit of the doubt. Even if initially the FA was wrong it's clear that the exchange escalated, the passengers were rude, to the point where the captain had to get involved. Otherwise the police would not have been called.
Aug 19, 2019, 1:59 pm
#132
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis: DL DM charter 2.3MM
Programs: A3*Gold, SPG Plat, HyattDiamond, MarriottPP, LHW exAccess, ICI, Raffles Amb, NW PE MM, TWA Gold MM
Posts: 100,404
As long as it's $0.50 cheaper, (or appears to be so) people will continue flying AC anyway. Except if banned of course... But back to the issue, in the current scenario until proven otherwsie I give the crew the benefit of the doubt. Even if initially the FA was wrong it's clear that the exchange escalated, the passengers were rude, to the point where the captain had to get involved. Otherwise the police would not have been called.
Really? So you've never seen a FA go on a power trip and retaliate against customers for no justifiable reason?
Aug 19, 2019, 2:00 pm
#133
Join Date: Jun 2016
Programs: air miles
Posts: 283
It sounds like she attempted to tell the FA her assigned seat was occupied, and this led to the ban.
I've had enough encounters with stupid agents (eg https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/25898490-post1.html) that I just don't know how I'd behave here. In that linked example, walking away was always an option if things had become too heated. But on a plane when you're trying to explain that your seat is occupied but the FA is having none of it and telling you to sit there anyway... what do you do?
I've had enough encounters with stupid agents (eg https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/25898490-post1.html) that I just don't know how I'd behave here. In that linked example, walking away was always an option if things had become too heated. But on a plane when you're trying to explain that your seat is occupied but the FA is having none of it and telling you to sit there anyway... what do you do?
Aug 19, 2019, 2:10 pm
#134
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis: DL DM charter 2.3MM
Programs: A3*Gold, SPG Plat, HyattDiamond, MarriottPP, LHW exAccess, ICI, Raffles Amb, NW PE MM, TWA Gold MM
Posts: 100,404
No she didn't return to her seat, nor did she attempt to get assistance from the FA to get her assigned seat back. She specifically said that she was going to wait in the seat she was in until her mother returned, because a) she didn't expect to be able to sit in her assigned seat (huh? why?) and b) apparently mother would become worried that her 22 yr old daughter went missing. Does this behaviour warrant police involvement and a ban, absolutely not, but that is why I think there are holes in her story.
Regardless of whether she wanted to sit in her assigned seat or elsewhere (Aren't there lots of people on every flight who would prefer to sit elsewhere, in some seat other than their assigned seat? That's not a reason for booting someone let alone banning them.), she COULD NOT sit in the assigned seat because it was occupied by the child and the child's parent had already refused to move the child, saying that the seat was "needed" for the child. The daughter tried to tell the FA that her assigned seat was occupied but the FA ignored this information. I think the daughter, as a relatively inexperienced traveler, acted reasonably in the story.
Aug 19, 2019, 2:16 pm
#135
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: YYC
Posts: 23,803
Much less frequently than passengers using abusive language with crew members. But eh, we can speculate to death while waiting for the other side of the story. As I said, at this point I give the crew the benefit of the doubt. Until proven otherwise if applicable.