CBC Article - Mom, daughter kicked off Air Canada plane, not told they're banned
Aug 17, 2019, 1:48 am
#76
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 6,222
Probably the most important skill I developed as a frequent flyer: That ability to remain polite and courteous while at the same time getting the message across to the person I was speaking to that I thought they were an utter moron.
Aug 17, 2019, 4:58 am
#78
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: YVR
Programs: OZ Diamond, Jiffypark Manhattan Gold
Posts: 4,485
There's a couple things I don't like about this.
1. It's obviously 1 sided. I have a hard time believing the crew are angels. I have the same hard time believing the passengers are angels. There's also been instances where seemingly airlines have IVDBed people in situations where they overbooked. My guess is the flight attendant was already a little pissed after having to move a bunch of pax around and when ANYONE gave him/her ANY pushback even just by saying "I can't" or "I can't" with an eye roll or whatever, that was kinda it.
2. This is the kind of thing that happens with seating. You know how you get families to sit together? You allow them to pick seats together. Wanna charge for seating? Cool, then let passengers pay to sit together. I pick (and sometimes pay) for aisle seats. So if that means someone's kid is in the middle, so be it. I'll switch with the parent towards the back of the plane if it's an aisle seat, but I'm not taking that parent's middle seat just because they refused to pay $20 to sit together. So then when the parent pleads with the FAs, it puts them in just as awkward of a situation as I'm in not wanting to move.
3. The girl should've immediately told the man in her seat that he was in her seat, the FAs could've resolved it right then and there if it needed resolving.
4. When the FA says you're kicked off the plane. Leave, dispute it later. It's like arguing a strike out, it might feel good, but you're not changing the umpire's opinion. Maybe they wouldn't have been banned if she hadn't refused to leave the plane resulting in the cops being called. Maybe the FA telling her she'd be rebooked was before the police showed up.
5. Travel insurance. When will people learn? I missed a flight by about 5 minutes for a variety of reasons, some were my fault, some were the fault of SEATAC and I'd argue Emirates closes their doors unreasonably early (I was there at 17 minutes prior to push, they said they close at D-20). No one at SEATAC from EK would help me, so I got on the phone and started giving them alternate options, they wanted $2600USD for the SAME flight, the next day (which involved an overnight in DXB). The flight was like $600CAD total value. I called my insurance company and they blindly said "yea, just book the emirates flight, keep the receipts and we'll take care of the claim when you get home". I offered up that I found a faster option, for less money, $2500 CAD and they said "hey no problem, take that one and we'll proceed from there", got myself a nearly $300 hotel room for the night cuz SEATAC is insanely expensive. All was taken care of without much effort at all.
6. Lastly, I'm quite surprised this woman would book herself on another AC flight. Even unaware she was banned, I know if I was this mad at an airline, I wouldn't be flying them again without the situation being rectified. But maybe she thought it was LH to YYZ, who knows.
1. It's obviously 1 sided. I have a hard time believing the crew are angels. I have the same hard time believing the passengers are angels. There's also been instances where seemingly airlines have IVDBed people in situations where they overbooked. My guess is the flight attendant was already a little pissed after having to move a bunch of pax around and when ANYONE gave him/her ANY pushback even just by saying "I can't" or "I can't" with an eye roll or whatever, that was kinda it.
2. This is the kind of thing that happens with seating. You know how you get families to sit together? You allow them to pick seats together. Wanna charge for seating? Cool, then let passengers pay to sit together. I pick (and sometimes pay) for aisle seats. So if that means someone's kid is in the middle, so be it. I'll switch with the parent towards the back of the plane if it's an aisle seat, but I'm not taking that parent's middle seat just because they refused to pay $20 to sit together. So then when the parent pleads with the FAs, it puts them in just as awkward of a situation as I'm in not wanting to move.
3. The girl should've immediately told the man in her seat that he was in her seat, the FAs could've resolved it right then and there if it needed resolving.
4. When the FA says you're kicked off the plane. Leave, dispute it later. It's like arguing a strike out, it might feel good, but you're not changing the umpire's opinion. Maybe they wouldn't have been banned if she hadn't refused to leave the plane resulting in the cops being called. Maybe the FA telling her she'd be rebooked was before the police showed up.
5. Travel insurance. When will people learn? I missed a flight by about 5 minutes for a variety of reasons, some were my fault, some were the fault of SEATAC and I'd argue Emirates closes their doors unreasonably early (I was there at 17 minutes prior to push, they said they close at D-20). No one at SEATAC from EK would help me, so I got on the phone and started giving them alternate options, they wanted $2600USD for the SAME flight, the next day (which involved an overnight in DXB). The flight was like $600CAD total value. I called my insurance company and they blindly said "yea, just book the emirates flight, keep the receipts and we'll take care of the claim when you get home". I offered up that I found a faster option, for less money, $2500 CAD and they said "hey no problem, take that one and we'll proceed from there", got myself a nearly $300 hotel room for the night cuz SEATAC is insanely expensive. All was taken care of without much effort at all.
6. Lastly, I'm quite surprised this woman would book herself on another AC flight. Even unaware she was banned, I know if I was this mad at an airline, I wouldn't be flying them again without the situation being rectified. But maybe she thought it was LH to YYZ, who knows.
Aug 17, 2019, 8:18 am
#79
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Canada
Programs: Aeroplan E50/MM, HH gold, Nat Exec Elite, Kimpton Karma
Posts: 2,350
I have used the lav probably a dozen times before takeoff, always when I'm positioned so I don't have to go against the flow of traffic. Once or twice I've been told it's not allowed. This is another one of those made-up rules to suit the FA's convenience. What they want you to do when you board is sit down and shut up ASAP so they can get going on time.
As an OP above points out, some aircraft don’t have toilets that work in the ground. A couple of times when I’ve used the lav before take off, there’s been no water (explained as not turned on until we are in flight). Have never had an issue using it as a “change room”. I’ve also had FA offer wipes if water not on. However, none of these experiences were in Y. Different rules upfront?
Aug 17, 2019, 8:27 am
#80
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: YYC
Posts: 23,795
Aug 17, 2019, 8:30 am
#81
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Canada
Programs: Aeroplan E50/MM, HH gold, Nat Exec Elite, Kimpton Karma
Posts: 2,350
Regrettably, this was before my FT days. I know now to ask for more than AC champagne 😊.
Aug 17, 2019, 8:52 am
#82
Join Date: Aug 2012
Programs: AC E35K, NEXUS
Posts: 4,368
A big risk of two BP with same seat number is that one is on the wrong aircraft. I had a seat mate jump up after taking a call on his cell, grab his carry on and evacuate the plane (on the ground, obviously) leaving his hardcover book in the seatback pocket, because he was on the wrong aircraft. The right owner of the seat did not arrive until later, but had she come while he was there, we would have had two people holding 2A, just not on the same flight.
Aug 17, 2019, 8:56 am
#83
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: YYC
Posts: 23,795
A big risk of two BP with same seat number is that one is on the wrong aircraft. I had a seat mate jump up after taking a call on his cell, grab his carry on and evacuate the plane (on the ground, obviously) leaving his hardcover book in the seatback pocket, because he was on the wrong aircraft. The right owner of the seat did not arrive until later, but had she come while he was there, we would have had two people holding 2A, just not on the same flight.
But that sort of situation is not supposed to happen, the gate agent scans the boarding pass and surely his/her computer will react violently if someone tries boarding the wrong flight... Really would entail the gate agent not doing things right. Just like not pulling a coupon. Which probably would not have happened in that scenario. More typical of two people with same seat assignment is that one of them has been upgraded or moved to another seat after boarding.
Aug 17, 2019, 10:04 am
#84
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Canada
Programs: *G
Posts: 2,304
Interesting discussion (even if getting OT). In the good old days, I recall two BPs for one seat often being caused by same names - it was the first thing FAs looked at. I've had it happen to me when I boarded successfully in Y but had in fact been upgraded at some point.
I had a recent experience with toilet use not available on the ground - vacuum pumps inop, but system would work once aircraft was above 16,000 ft. General announcement was made (which in itself would imply that it would have otherwise been allowed).
On this thread topic, there only seems to be mention of the FA -where was the SD, and surely the Captain had to OK calling security and the delay entailed.
Plus people not paying for seats, and ending up separated, is an ongoing issue. I've had several experiences in Preferred seats, when a separated family boards near last (since those seats go last), and wanting others to move. Not my problem - AC needs to have a better way to handle it. We have frequently bought basic fares and no seats for shorter regional flights, and always end up with good seats together, so not sure what system AC uses for this process.
And finally, I've also seen first hand how some employers handle family relocation travel - a separate ticket for each passenger, so it's entirely possible that what looks like 4 individuals, is in fact 2 adults and two small children. Anyone not aware of the possible ramifications can easily fall into the trap (and linking PNRs is not always a reliable solution).
I had a recent experience with toilet use not available on the ground - vacuum pumps inop, but system would work once aircraft was above 16,000 ft. General announcement was made (which in itself would imply that it would have otherwise been allowed).
On this thread topic, there only seems to be mention of the FA -where was the SD, and surely the Captain had to OK calling security and the delay entailed.
Plus people not paying for seats, and ending up separated, is an ongoing issue. I've had several experiences in Preferred seats, when a separated family boards near last (since those seats go last), and wanting others to move. Not my problem - AC needs to have a better way to handle it. We have frequently bought basic fares and no seats for shorter regional flights, and always end up with good seats together, so not sure what system AC uses for this process.
And finally, I've also seen first hand how some employers handle family relocation travel - a separate ticket for each passenger, so it's entirely possible that what looks like 4 individuals, is in fact 2 adults and two small children. Anyone not aware of the possible ramifications can easily fall into the trap (and linking PNRs is not always a reliable solution).
Aug 17, 2019, 11:09 am
#85
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: YYC
Posts: 23,795
Plus people not paying for seats, and ending up separated, is an ongoing issue. I've had several experiences in Preferred seats, when a separated family boards near last (since those seats go last), and wanting others to move. Not my problem - AC needs to have a better way to handle it. We have frequently bought basic fares and no seats for shorter regional flights, and always end up with good seats together, so not sure what system AC uses for this process.
AC offeres free seating for families. Now if people don't read what's offered or if their TA does not do their job right, blame is entirely theirs.
And finally, I've also seen first hand how some employers handle family relocation travel - a separate ticket for each passenger, so it's entirely possible that what looks like 4 individuals, is in fact 2 adults and two small children. Anyone not aware of the possible ramifications can easily fall into the trap (and linking PNRs is not always a reliable solution).
Children cannot be seated alone. I believe they cannot be booked alone actually. If they are then it's because they were booked as adults. Again, whoever does that brings it upon himself. This was the case of a minor getting bumped by AC not long ago, I believe. He must had been booked separately as an adult because they could not book him alone as a child.
Aug 17, 2019, 11:28 am
#86
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Canada
Programs: *G
Posts: 2,304
Children cannot be seated alone. I believe they cannot be booked alone actually. If they are then it's because they were booked as adults. Again, whoever does that brings it upon himself. This was the case of a minor getting bumped by AC not long ago, I believe. He must had been booked separately as an adult because they could not book him alone as a child.
Children can and are booked alone all the time by the TA that handles military family moves. Maybe they are not supposed to be, but every family member has a separate ticket and PNR. It evidently caused some issues during 737 Max rebooking when there are examples of young kids being re-accommodated on their own. It was all fixed of course, but I was merely trying to quote an example of how things like this can happen. The person I know is sufficiently familiar with processes to at least get the PNRs linked, but during IRROPS, nothing is for sure. They've proven that with just two adults, but so far full family travel has gone smoothly. They don't bring it on themselves -they are powerless for it to be done any other way (and don't think they haven't tried, including approaching their MP).
Aug 17, 2019, 2:18 pm
#87
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: YYC
Posts: 23,795
Children can and are booked alone all the time by the TA that handles military family moves. Maybe they are not supposed to be, but every family member has a separate ticket and PNR. It evidently caused some issues during 737 Max rebooking when there are examples of young kids being re-accommodated on their own. It was all fixed of course, but I was merely trying to quote an example of how things like this can happen. The person I know is sufficiently familiar with processes to at least get the PNRs linked, but during IRROPS, nothing is for sure. They've proven that with just two adults, but so far full family travel has gone smoothly. They don't bring it on themselves -they are powerless for it to be done any other way (and don't think they haven't tried, including approaching their MP).
Surely, if booking them as adults, yes they *can*. But try booking a child alone on aircanada.com, system won't let you. So at the end of the day these TAs are violating the airline rules. If issues arise, these TAs are entirely to blame. Not sure what would happen if someone complain; after all, TAs are agents *of the airlines.* They are violating their agency agreement.
Aug 17, 2019, 3:13 pm
#88
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: YXE
Programs: Curb Your Enthusiasm, Fraggle Rock
Posts: 123
Back in 2007 I mistakenly boarded an AC YYZ-YOW, flight leaving one hour earlier than the one I was ticketed for. There was no fuss at the gate whatsoever - it only became apparent when the passenger assigned to my seat came in and the FA pointed out my error. (The FA offered to keep me on the flight in a different seat, but alas it was one of the few times in my life I've checked luggage.)
Aug 17, 2019, 3:49 pm
#89
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Halifax
Programs: AC SE100K, Marriott Lifetime Platinum Elite. NEXUS
Posts: 4,562
Recall the details of the whatever small claims court, where an AC rep swore that PAX was on a particular flight, despite their boarding pass on another, and other witness testimony impossible, if they were still in the air.
Its possible AC issued two boarding passes for the same seat, same flight.
Also possible that the child wasn't assigned the seat they were in.
Regardless of why, the FAs are responsible for fixing problems, not PAX. Because when PAX attempt to fix problems... GOTO 10.
Its possible AC issued two boarding passes for the same seat, same flight.
Also possible that the child wasn't assigned the seat they were in.
Regardless of why, the FAs are responsible for fixing problems, not PAX. Because when PAX attempt to fix problems... GOTO 10.
Aug 17, 2019, 4:13 pm
#90
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: トロント
Programs: IHG Gold
Posts: 4,819
Re Mother and Daughter story. Mom works in "finance" . Had they booked 2 seats together and paid for the seat fee, none of this would have happened. Had some miscreant been sitting in one of their two seats, they would have called the FA.
Instead it looks like they chose to not pay for seat selection, got pot luck when boarding and were seated in separate rows. Daughter decided to sit near Mom on her own volition without involving crew.
Classic case of Finance person being "penny wise and pound foolish".
Instead it looks like they chose to not pay for seat selection, got pot luck when boarding and were seated in separate rows. Daughter decided to sit near Mom on her own volition without involving crew.
Classic case of Finance person being "penny wise and pound foolish".