AC Drops Domestic flight @ Canadian Customs

Old Jul 28, 19, 5:20 pm
  #31  
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Originally Posted by skybluesea View Post


i provided the link to the CCA policy and if you read carefully Parliament did make anyone, let me repeat, anyone in the CCA subject to CBSA intervention - whether this will withstand a Charter challenge yet to be tested.

And the CCA area can extend well beyond the exit to the Customs Hall - for which AC benefits with that great through bag check to domestic we have at YYZ for example. In practice, CBSA now has the authority even in domestic areas should they discover after initial inspection something is amiss.

and back to Thread, absolutely CBSA can intervene if AC drops you into Customs area - in practice they donít, but if your on domestic flight carrying narcotic contraband and the CBSA dog sniffs you out, you will be detained until local police are called to deal with a domestic crime.
Obviously the US is different, but I was searched flying BOS-YHZ by CBP in BOS. I was "in the US" in the sense that you can't be in a US airport departures area without having cleared US immigration, but they certainly felt like they had the authority to check me out, and I certainly wasn't going to say no.

Originally Posted by D582 View Post
On domestic flights you are always dumped back into the gate area of the terminal. How come no one noticed that you were going somewhere different?
I don't remember which gate it is at SFO (101?), but you always pass a sign that says "US Customs Inspection Area" (or something like that), with an arrow pointing in the direction you're walking, whenever you arrive from Canada.

And every time, I get a little nervous, and start paying more attention to things until I inevitably walk out in the gate area.

In YYZ/YVR, I know that if I end up on an escalator up, I'm going the wrong way. But with how the swing gates work, I'm not sure I'd notice at another airport I'm less familiar with. Or at least until it's too late.

Originally Posted by ffsim View Post
Swing gates often involve a right turn here, a left turn there, and maybe an escalator or two thrown in for good measure. I suspect only travellers with the most intimate familiarity of a particular gate would immediately know if theyíre being led the wrong way; generally, people just follow the crowd and / or the directions of airport / airline staff.
Exactly. As I said, I get tripped up in SFO somewhat regularly, and I fly into here at LEAST once a year. I just assume they have the right doors open, and keep walking.
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Old Jul 28, 19, 6:10 pm
  #32  
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Originally Posted by D582 View Post
On domestic flights you are always dumped back into the gate area of the terminal. How come no one noticed that you were going somewhere different?
No idea why no one noticed. We ended up doing the typical route you'd follow if you came in from say SFO. I recognized it immediately but figured they were going to pop a door along the way.
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Old Jul 28, 19, 6:14 pm
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Originally Posted by canadiancow View Post
Obviously the US is different, but I was searched flying BOS-YHZ by CBP in BOS. I was "in the US" in the sense that you can't be in a US airport departures area without having cleared US immigration, but they certainly felt like they had the authority to check me out, and I certainly wasn't going to say no..
US & Cdn Immigration/Customs laws are similar that they say can intervene with persons entering or departing. Why, because of export control laws - so CBP/CBSA can inspect for outbound contraband- and for those bringing their technology - your purchase agreement will specify what is illegal to export to foreign countries- like anything that can be converted for military purposes taken into hostile territory.

and with regard to this AC incident, CBSA needs to be on the watch for conspiracy by AC staff who purposely redirects passengers to CBSA who might then mix with foreign ORIGIN passengers, where a document or contraband can be switched, with the domestic party now in possession of un-inspected goods and claiming they arrived from domestic origin so they should be just waived through.



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Last edited by tcook052; Jul 28, 19 at 6:17 pm Reason: Off topic posting
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Old Jul 28, 19, 7:25 pm
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There are various scenarios in the DOM/TB/INTL nexus in YYZ where PAX of various sterility levels mix, monitored by only minimum wage teenagers.

Depending on your viewpoint: it is not a threat profile they consider serious. Or not an environment that theater has infiltrated.
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Old Jul 28, 19, 11:15 pm
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Originally Posted by RangerNS View Post
monitored by only minimum wage teenagers..
and this point of view presumes AC working with CBSA to meet their long-standing MOU obligations would rely on single point of potential failure - definitely NOT the case.

Rather, The CCA was long in the making that involves multiple layers of defense. So in this case once CBSA finds out that domestic passengers have been dumped into the inspection hall, then CBSA can demand from AC the manifest for that flight and can later interdict passengers within the expanded CCA authority. Whether they do this or not is an operational decision, but the legislation provides for such discretionary enforcement action.

and if you donít like this complain to your MP to get CCA removed, although expect heavy AC opposition as AC could otherwise face massive fines for breaching sterility of controlled areas by letting in domestic pax.

the solutions employed by CBSA with active AC cooperation far exceed what is evident in the airport to passengers.
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Old Jul 28, 19, 11:47 pm
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Originally Posted by skybluesea View Post

the solutions employed by CBSA with active AC cooperation far exceed what is evident in the airport to passengers.
Oh, I have no doubt there are cameras on me with far less technology backing them then Amazon has in their camera-only stores. One could easily slip something to someone up in the maze.

That being an effective way to get something in to Canada is a different question. Very difficult, and very small.... Which kinda calls into question why there is any per-person screening at all. Its all about waving the flag and being scary. Border guards inside a Canadian airport wearing bullet proof vests? Seriously?
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Old Jul 29, 19, 12:38 am
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Originally Posted by RangerNS View Post

That being an effective way to get something in to Canada is a different question. Very difficult, and very small....
Back to point of this Thread, AC has a choice, act as quasi- border agents or face routine massive fines and heavy operational restrictions arising from the tiniest error. AC has long chosen the former, and what happened with OP is the positive pay-back for AC cooperation.

and without imposing “martial law” on Canadians, AC does the best they can with available tools and I’m sure the AC Board has been warned about what could happen to AC capital stock and their social license should AC be found culpable from lack of due diligence in carrying active terrorist members that immediately perpetrate an attack or carry a dirty fissionable device that is detonated over or at a major Cdn city airport.



Last edited by tcook052; Jul 29, 19 at 5:58 am Reason: Off topic posting
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Old Jul 29, 19, 8:10 am
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I do wonder, if through a mixup like this a Canadian citizen faced charges due to CBSA discovering something, would they survive in court?
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Old Jul 29, 19, 9:03 am
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Originally Posted by colombianbrew View Post
I do wonder, if through a mixup like this a Canadian citizen faced charges due to CBSA discovering something, would they survive in court?
see my post #21 , and yes question remains what might happen in court, and which for those of us working on this file for more than a decade ever got a satisfactory answer from Justice Dept lawyers.

However, repeated failed efforts with Charter based defenses have been made to challenge CBSA intrusive non-probable cause based inspection practices - with the typical court ruling that the threat from outside forces, on balance, warrants setting aside normal due process protections.

Nevertheless unclear whether courts would convict based on an operational error by AC that exposes domestic passengers to CCA based CBSA scrutiny- and AC might very well be sued to recover any extra costs should someone successfully avoid such a conviction, by blaming AC via civil suit for negligence?

Unfortunately, in the circumstance where the new CBSA powers are successfully challenged, this could cause the CCA to legally unravel which then means many of the facilitation and operational streamlining AC benefits from would disappear too.

So how many FTers would like to start picking up their bag again coming from EU at YYZ to a domestic connection? Not me !
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Old Jul 29, 19, 10:02 am
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Are you sure it was AC 419 on Friday? According to AC, that flight arrived at D35. This is not a swing gate. Iím not sure itís even possible to enter customs from that gate since itís on the other side of the concourse from the swing gates.
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Old Jul 29, 19, 11:38 am
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I mean, it sounds like they were dumped out in an area that is technically outside Canada no? The international area?

Canadian citizens and indeed Permanent residents cannot be denied entry to Canada, you'll get through eventually but depending upon whom you are, what you have on you and the agent in question this could be quite a delay ... The CBSA agents have a great deal of power.
Hopefully there was no-one flying domestically with some form of foreign ID (most aren't allowed, except say US driving licenses I believe, I've done intra-US on a Canadian one) and not their passport and got stuck ...

To me at least, AC appears to have screwed up here and should be held accountable. I wouldn't be happy if this happened.
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