moondog

AC was not pursuing her for a criminal act. Now that she has a lawyer, they might attempt so, but I don't think they'd stand a chance.

RangerNS

It isn't up to AC to make a criminal charge, or start an investigation, even. (I mean, in theory the could persue a private prosecution, but... no).

AC wants to not lose, and their money. In that priority order.

canadiancow

Your FT post count would suggest otherwise.

Fiordland

I don't think AC establishing a value for the ticket is clear cut. She is a Student, so she qualifies to buy student pricing through a number of organisations that do not offer airline tickets to the "general public".

She could have have purchased the ticket from any number of travel agents that work with consolidators. In those cases Air Canada sells the ticket at wholesale to the consolidator and the consolidator is free to set the price it sells the tickets at to its customers. For all we know or don't know Captain Cool could have been one of these, just trying not a very ethical one. About 5 years ago I was doing consulting for a government agency in Shanghai that always wanted to book my AC tickets through the TA they had in China since it was significantly cheaper than anything I could do in Canada.

I don't think AC has any hope of setting a definitive and credible price for these tickets given the lack of transparency and complexity of their sales channel.

I think it is a stretch to claim she committed a criminal act. If she know the tickets were stolen that is one thing, if she thought she was just getting a really good deal that is another.


Here is an article on how AC is offering opaque fares through some channels: https://business.financialpost.com/t...he-way-you-fly

Dave510

Some perspective: For the average person, getting a few credit cards and being able to fly in J/F for next to nothing sounds "too good to be true".

pitz

The (reversed) CC transactions went through at a certain price, so I don't see why such price wouldn't fully establish AC's loss (+ investigative and legal costs). The whole discussion of fares that this thread has devolved to is just in discussion of whether or not the fare that the "woman" paid to the fraudster was a credible price for AC business class or not.

Indeed, the individual that committed the fraud is "Captain Cool", who cheated AC's self-insurance schema for credit card payments out of $18k or so. There is zero evidence to suggest that the "woman" has been anything but fully cooperative with AC and the relevant police force in trying to identify and recover the money from the scammer. There is zero evidence to suggest that the "woman" knew that she was travelling on tickets derived from stolen funds. The crime of fraud requires mens rea. AC, on a transaction which was known to be with a reversible form of payment, failed to do even basic due diligence before allowing her to travel many times, and even failed to inhibit her travel even after they had knowledge of her travel on fraudulently obtained tickets.

mapleg

I am not claiming to be Sherlock Holmes, but to me it is elementary that Captain Cool is not and was not a consolidator. They don't buy tickets with stolen credit cards and then "disappear" when there is an issue

Transpacificflyer

FT offers excellent insight into obtaining value for one's airfare purchase. It also provides tips and guidance on how to address issues such as IROPs and airline misadventures. Note too that FT has sections on hotels, destinations, and access to legal and mental health issues of concern to travelers. For example, this thread has provided excellent insight into airfare fraud and the attitudes and behaviors of those who enable such fraud.

tcook052

Amen to that.

RangerNS

Why do you feel the need to questions this person's gender?

Away from YYZ

Yes, I read some of the post and commented as well. So assume she always buy tickets the last minute (say within a month of flying, so the CC victim hasn't see the statement), but I would assume on her return flight, the CC transaction should be flag already. I recall reading another FTer posting a story how he was deny boarding on his return because the airline said there was an issue with his CC...

Back to the topic... If my memory didn't fail me, when I use a CC to purchase plane ticket, it always shows the charges directly from the airline. I wonder what is shown on her credit card bill... Now I doubted it shows AC for her but rather whatever "Captain Cooll"'s registration with the CC company. How difficult to go after 'Captain Cooll' in that case? And if 'Captain Cooll' is scamming her, there must be other victims as well. Wouldn't AC be doing the same thing to the others?

Again, something didn't really add up in the story...

RangerNS

Apparently WeChat has some built in payment mechanism, which doesn't quite require a level of ID one might expect in Canada.

RangerNS

Also, the marketplace for CCs are quite detailed. One could very well be able to buy CCs that are only going to be good for a couple of tanks of gas, and buy from a bucket of rich dudes CC who won't notice for a couple of months $10k in fradulant charges.

Fiordland

I believe it has to be linked to a Bank Account or Credit Card.

To provide some perspective there are 37 Million people living in Canada. There are over 300 Million users of WeChat payment facilities.

Transpacificflyer

In case you missed it, the woman purchased an airline ticket which involved credit card fraud. She need not have effected the direct criminal act of the fraud to be implicated. In this case, she has benefited from a criminal act. In Canada, it is illegal to benefit, or to profit from the proceeds of crime. At the center of the Air Canada position is that an illegal act occurred. In Canada, credit card fraud is a "criminal" act.

Your position asks that we suspend common sense, and to take a giant leap of faith, or rather a skewed great leap forward (apologies to Billy Bragg).

1. The airfares that you refer to are specific to economy. Sometimes they will extend to Premium Economy. In all the time I have looked at Hopper, Hipmunk, Skyscanner and other platforms which claim that they offer the lowest fares, I haven't seen a price differential on BUSINESS Class fares anywhere close to what this woman obtained. I don't like paying $5,500+ on my TPACs, so I do verify various options before I book. Surprise, surprise, good old Google ITA software is still fairly consistent along with Kayak, when it comes to business class airfares.

2.

3. Centennial College students do not have access to "student discounted" business class airfares. There is neither the market nor the need to offer it. The typical Centennial College student does not have the means to fly TPAC business class, let alone fly. These are kids and young adults being trained for the service and trades business sectors and are of modest financial means.

4. The burden is not on Air Canada to establish the airfare. Again, the core issue is that the purchase was made through credit card theft. This type of theft involves identity theft. As per item 1. it is illegal in Canada to benefit from a criminal act. The criminal act was the credit card fraud. Once the airfare was purchased through fraudulent means, an obligation was assumed by the reduced airfare ticket holder (beneficiary of the credit card fraud) to disgorge the illegally gained benefit.

Air Canada can establish its airfares on the date of the transaction. It has its data logs to show the dynamic pricing of the airfare on that day. That is all that is required.

The woman is claiming hat Air Canada is bullying her. IMO, she's grasping at straws. Caught, with a loss of face, she's most likely worried about a lot more than the airfare. Hers is a common defence practice. Often when people are caught in a wrongful act, they attempt to change the subject with a side issue or counter claim. We see this on a weekly basis with a certain politician to the south. I offer that Air Canada is being nice about this. If this was China, I believe that the woman would be sitting in jail, waiting.