AC imposes 'no fly' ban, demands $18K from woman after ticket scam
Jun 5, 2019, 11:06 am
#136
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Halifax
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Second, AC isn't spending money or resources. "going after her", they are leaving the problem up to her to deal with. They just have stopped doing business with her.
The only real problem I see is if anyone else named "Ann Qian" wants to take a domestic AC flight.
Jun 5, 2019, 11:25 am
#137
Join Date: Sep 2016
Programs: AEROPLAN, SPG GOLD
Posts: 42
First, people have the same name, so 3 events joined by unreliable data in 18 months isn't quite a pattern. Only international tickets would (at the airport) need linking to some unique identifier.
Second, AC isn't spending money or resources. "going after her", they are leaving the problem up to her to deal with. They just have stopped doing business with her.
The only real problem I see is if anyone else named "Ann Qian" wants to take a domestic AC flight.
Second, AC isn't spending money or resources. "going after her", they are leaving the problem up to her to deal with. They just have stopped doing business with her.
The only real problem I see is if anyone else named "Ann Qian" wants to take a domestic AC flight.
Yes, people do have the same name so how did AC know this was the same 'Ann Qian'. According to the article, she was stopped at the airport so I suspect there was an id check probably using the passport to figure this was the 'one'. They could have done that for the second flight or third flight. They could of also looked at what other common identifiers such as was the same phone number, email used to purchase the tickets.
To your second point, drafting a letter requires resources and the fact it is going to arbitration in front of the Canadian Transportation Agency will require resources and money.
Jun 5, 2019, 1:09 pm
#139
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC SEMM / HH Diamond
Posts: 3,161
I have very mixed emotions about this case.
On one hand, I believe that she is just a nieve & gullible victim - I don't buy that she's a criminal mastermind.
On the other, I can see AC deciding that they would rather not do business anymore with someone who has proven themselves susceptible to being taken advantage of by real fraudsters (with AC ultimately having to pay the costs).
As was pointed out above, it does not sound like AC are actively going after her to recover the money ... they are just declining to engage in subsequent business transactions with her. It's hard for me to come down on them too hard for doing that.
If I was a hotel chain, and every time a certain person booked a room (whether directly or indirectly through a broker) the credit card was later declined and I had to eat the costs ... after a few similar transactions, would it really be surprising if I just said "thanks but no thanks" the next time the same person tried to book another room from me?
On one hand, I believe that she is just a nieve & gullible victim - I don't buy that she's a criminal mastermind.
On the other, I can see AC deciding that they would rather not do business anymore with someone who has proven themselves susceptible to being taken advantage of by real fraudsters (with AC ultimately having to pay the costs).
As was pointed out above, it does not sound like AC are actively going after her to recover the money ... they are just declining to engage in subsequent business transactions with her. It's hard for me to come down on them too hard for doing that.
If I was a hotel chain, and every time a certain person booked a room (whether directly or indirectly through a broker) the credit card was later declined and I had to eat the costs ... after a few similar transactions, would it really be surprising if I just said "thanks but no thanks" the next time the same person tried to book another room from me?
Jun 5, 2019, 1:17 pm
#140
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 8,002
From the article.........
.... flying three times with Air Canada over almost a year and a half without an issue.
Qian says she paid "CaptainCooll" $5,800 for the flights, which included "deals" on business class seats.
Do we know how many of these flights were in Business Class?
Or the ratio of flights to YVR/PVG?
$5800 for three round trips with a couple segments in J isn't unreasonable.From the article.........
.....for a pre-booked fifth flight to Shanghai — another $3,600.
Current pricing for September is less than $4100. How would this kettle know that $3600 for J is unreasonable?
.... flying three times with Air Canada over almost a year and a half without an issue.
Qian says she paid "CaptainCooll" $5,800 for the flights, which included "deals" on business class seats.
Do we know how many of these flights were in Business Class?
Or the ratio of flights to YVR/PVG?
$5800 for three round trips with a couple segments in J isn't unreasonable.From the article.........
.....for a pre-booked fifth flight to Shanghai — another $3,600.
Current pricing for September is less than $4100. How would this kettle know that $3600 for J is unreasonable?
I regularly see P fares, 75% discounted from full J. Does that make me a better shopper than the KE facebook ads?
Remember the 5th trip she booked was a J cabin fare for $3600. Not unreasonable for the route in question.
Hopefully Ms. Qian will graduate soon so she can make amends to AC by coming up with a new banana bread reicpe.
Jun 5, 2019, 1:38 pm
#141
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 319
I have very mixed emotions about this case.
On one hand, I believe that she is just a nieve & gullible victim - I don't buy that she's a criminal mastermind.
On the other, I can see AC deciding that they would rather not do business anymore with someone who has proven themselves susceptible to being taken advantage of by real fraudsters (with AC ultimately having to pay the costs).
As was pointed out above, it does not sound like AC are actively going after her to recover the money ... they are just declining to engage in subsequent business transactions with her. It's hard for me to come down on them too hard for doing that.
If I was a hotel chain, and every time a certain person booked a room (whether directly or indirectly through a broker) the credit card was later declined and I had to eat the costs ... after a few similar transactions, would it really be surprising if I just said "thanks but no thanks" the next time the same person tried to book another room from me?
On one hand, I believe that she is just a nieve & gullible victim - I don't buy that she's a criminal mastermind.
On the other, I can see AC deciding that they would rather not do business anymore with someone who has proven themselves susceptible to being taken advantage of by real fraudsters (with AC ultimately having to pay the costs).
As was pointed out above, it does not sound like AC are actively going after her to recover the money ... they are just declining to engage in subsequent business transactions with her. It's hard for me to come down on them too hard for doing that.
If I was a hotel chain, and every time a certain person booked a room (whether directly or indirectly through a broker) the credit card was later declined and I had to eat the costs ... after a few similar transactions, would it really be surprising if I just said "thanks but no thanks" the next time the same person tried to book another room from me?
Jun 5, 2019, 1:43 pm
#142
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: トロント
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Posts: 4,820
Co worker of mine (from Shanghai) happened to mention to me today the story was getting some traction on Chinese language site, and the general comments did not seem to be overly sympathetic towards the young lady.
Jun 5, 2019, 1:44 pm
#143
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: YYC
Posts: 23,803
Incorrect, she paid the fraudster who bought the ticket with a stolen CC which she wouldn't have known from the current facts. Whether it is legally her fault, you do not know that for sure. The courts will decide that.
Finally, if the situation happened with my credit card, I would want the police and AC to go after the fraudster not this lady. How would going after her prevent this from happening again? They will just go scam some other unsuspecting person.
Incorrect, she paid the fraudster who bought the ticket with a stolen CC which she wouldn't have known from the current facts. Whether it is legally her fault, you do not know that for sure. The courts will decide that.
Finally, if the situation happened with my credit card, I would want the police and AC to go after the fraudster not this lady. How would going after her prevent this from happening again? They will just go scam some other unsuspecting person.
That's not correct, as far as AC is concerned. The ticket is in her name, the contract is between her and AC. That there was a third party that did the work for her is immaterial. And good luck with the police; especially since the guy is likely in China or Belarus.
Jun 5, 2019, 1:49 pm
#144
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Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: YYC
Posts: 23,803
Yes, people do have the same name so how did AC know this was the same 'Ann Qian'. According to the article, she was stopped at the airport so I suspect there was an id check probably using the passport to figure this was the 'one'. They could have done that for the second flight or third flight. They could of also looked at what other common identifiers such as was the same phone number, email used to purchase the tickets.
To your second point, drafting a letter requires resources and the fact it is going to arbitration in front of the Canadian Transportation Agency will require resources and money.
Yes, people do have the same name so how did AC know this was the same 'Ann Qian'. According to the article, she was stopped at the airport so I suspect there was an id check probably using the passport to figure this was the 'one'. They could have done that for the second flight or third flight. They could of also looked at what other common identifiers such as was the same phone number, email used to purchase the tickets.
To your second point, drafting a letter requires resources and the fact it is going to arbitration in front of the Canadian Transportation Agency will require resources and money.
Eventually she was stopped. Additionally, Ann is likely not part of her official names, and her transliterated official name likely would hit quite a few matches, given the way Chinese names work. Plus, if the fraudster is half as smart as he should be there should be no other identifiers. Passport number might be the only one, assuming she did not change in the meantime. Plus these are not needed or recorded for domestic trips. Best possibility would be to catch her on the second overseas trip; which may be what happened, or maybe the third?
Jun 5, 2019, 1:50 pm
#145
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC SEMM / HH Diamond
Posts: 3,161
(I think that) they have explained that if she reimburses them for their lost costs, then they will lift the travel ban on her ... but if she chooses not to then it doesn't sound like they will chase her in court, they will just leave the ban in place.
Jun 5, 2019, 1:51 pm
#146
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC 75k, Marriott Titanium
Posts: 1,154
Who are we or anyone else to determine what 1/2 price is? The mysteries of airline pricing are greater than the mysteries of Wechat.
I regularly see P fares, 75% discounted from full J. Does that make me a better shopper than the KE facebook ads?
Remember the 5th trip she booked was a J cabin fare for $3600. Not unreasonable for the route in question.
Hopefully Ms. Qian will graduate soon so she can make amends to AC by coming up with a new banana bread reicpe.
I regularly see P fares, 75% discounted from full J. Does that make me a better shopper than the KE facebook ads?
Remember the 5th trip she booked was a J cabin fare for $3600. Not unreasonable for the route in question.
Hopefully Ms. Qian will graduate soon so she can make amends to AC by coming up with a new banana bread reicpe.
Jun 5, 2019, 1:55 pm
#147
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I don't think there is much of a chance Air Canada will able to win, and collect any money. Certainly not enough to cover legal fees.
I suspect the purpose is to generate enough publicity to reduce these kinds of "sales".
It does sound fishy. It took Air Canada a year to discover a ticket was paid for with a stolen credit card.
How many threads have we seen regarding mistake fares?
I suspect the purpose is to generate enough publicity to reduce these kinds of "sales".
It does sound fishy. It took Air Canada a year to discover a ticket was paid for with a stolen credit card.
How many threads have we seen regarding mistake fares?
Mistake fares are nothing like this. Sub $50 TATL base fares are common, and not mistakes.
I've paid all manner of amounts from ~$800 to ~$5000 USD to fly TATL round-trip on Air Canada. Please tell me the exact dollar figure where it crosses from "mistake" to "sale". A "mistake" is when an airline retroactively decides it was a mistake. The airline receives the money they requested. Unlike in this case, where a contract was formed, the passenger flew, but AC was never paid.
Jun 5, 2019, 2:06 pm
#148
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: YXE
Posts: 3,050
The principle here, that AC is denying all future service (and not just inhibiting all future CC-transactions from her), to enforce a civil dispute over services already rendered, opens a huge can of worms. For example, if someone goes bankrupt, and owes AC money for whatever reason (ie: a multi-month flight pass commitment was broken, for example), bankruptcy means an automatic judicial stay on collection processes, proceedings, etc, and AC's claims are only resolvable as an unsecured creditor to the bankrupt. It is well acknowledged in law that a creditor cannot deny future service on the sole basis of the existence of a debt for which the bankruptcy process has been entered into, in effect, creating a superior claim against a bankrupt that would not ordinarily exist per the statutory hierarchy of debts in bankruptcy. I don't see why the same principle doesn't apply here, especially since we do accept that carriers have certain statutory obligations. If XYZ Mining Co. buys flight passes, goes bankrupt, stiffs AC on a bunch of termination fees, does AC get to ban the (former) Board, Management, and employees that travelled until they fork up their share?
Last edited by pitz; Jun 5, 2019 at 2:11 pm
Jun 5, 2019, 2:13 pm
#149
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Halifax
Programs: AC SE100K, Marriott Lifetime Platinum Elite. NEXUS
Posts: 4,568
There was a further allegation, that she was disruptive or a danger to AC's operations, that was apparently made in the letter. Maybe some sort of tantrum when she was denied or even removed when already aboard?
The principle here, that AC is denying all future service, to enforce a civil dispute over services already rendered, opens a huge can of worms. For example, if someone goes bankrupt, and owes AC money for whatever reason (ie: a multi-month flight pass commitment was broken, for example), bankruptcy means an automatic judicial stay on collection processes, proceedings, etc, and AC's claims are only resolvable as an unsecured creditor to the bankrupt. It is well acknowledged in law that a creditor cannot deny future service on the sole basis of the existence of a debt for which the bankruptcy process has been entered into, in effect, creating a superior claim against a bankrupt that would not ordinarily exist per the statutory hierarchy of debts in bankruptcy. I don't see why the same principle doesn't apply here, especially since we do accept that carriers have certain statutory obligations. If XYZ Mining Co. buys flight passes, goes bankrupt, stiffs AC on a bunch of termination fees, does AC get to ban the (former) Board, Management, and employees that travelled until they fork up their share?
The principle here, that AC is denying all future service, to enforce a civil dispute over services already rendered, opens a huge can of worms. For example, if someone goes bankrupt, and owes AC money for whatever reason (ie: a multi-month flight pass commitment was broken, for example), bankruptcy means an automatic judicial stay on collection processes, proceedings, etc, and AC's claims are only resolvable as an unsecured creditor to the bankrupt. It is well acknowledged in law that a creditor cannot deny future service on the sole basis of the existence of a debt for which the bankruptcy process has been entered into, in effect, creating a superior claim against a bankrupt that would not ordinarily exist per the statutory hierarchy of debts in bankruptcy. I don't see why the same principle doesn't apply here, especially since we do accept that carriers have certain statutory obligations. If XYZ Mining Co. buys flight passes, goes bankrupt, stiffs AC on a bunch of termination fees, does AC get to ban the (former) Board, Management, and employees that travelled until they fork up their share?
But in any case, airline tickets are prepaid. It is atypical for anyone to be in debt to an airline. You might be able to make an argument you can't refuse to serve someone currently in debt to you at a restaurant, as it is customary to pay after. Which is why they must always accept cash (US phrasing "good for all debts").
Airlines are always pay first. And Air Canada is free to negotiate with this individual for the conditions of future service. Which seems to be paying up on past service.
Jun 5, 2019, 2:16 pm
#150
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