jc94

Unlike many here, I am tempted to give her the benefit of doubt. As has been alluded to half the public (I think 95% might be closer) think $600 if 'full fare economy' YVR YYZ return, many people just don't think and think something is a great deal.

Now, could or should she have known? Sure. Now try proving it. What happened to innocent until proved guilty - it may not be a popular law but it IS the law in almost every country on earth. What about Hanlon's Razor that I've seen in numerous other threads - normally with regards to IT but this could just be the case of someone who honestly did not know better. Heck just look at the number of people who fall for CRA and IR and other like scams buying tens of thousands in gift cards and all. Or door to door sellers.

Not to get too off topic here but let's compare this to the recent example many of us have seen where AC go over the top going after people for things most of us consider minor. In such a case they decided to take a somewhat well known SE to court over (in a nutshell) using the lounge and then not flying a few times. Perhaps they didn't do their research, perhaps they thought said person would back down, whatever happened they were wrong - ie: no backing down occurred and it was, as we know settled out of court. primarily (and I do NOT know the details of the NDA) because AC finally figured out the picked the wrong person to make an example of.

In this case, perhaps they decided or managed to pick on someone without the financial means / desire / experience to fight the monolith that is AC.

So, until someone hooks her up to a unbeatable lie detector (which doesn't exist) and has her admit she knew what she was doing, I'm going to believe she was innocent (if misguided) and think AC should go after the true criminals.

lewisc

I don't think there is much of a chance Air Canada will able to win, and collect any money. Certainly not enough to cover legal fees.

I suspect the purpose is to generate enough publicity to reduce these kinds of "sales".

It does sound fishy. It took Air Canada a year to discover a ticket was paid for with a stolen credit card.

How many threads have we seen regarding mistake fares?

Genetk44

RangerNS

Air Canada doesn't really need this one customers business. Suing her, even in small claims court, is going to take a corporate lawyer, or at least a corporate suit, who cost real money... And drag out the story. I guess swallowing the loss and letting her fly (with legit tickets) was possible, and AC bad press is always a risk, and I'm sure (HA!) they factored that in when they shut her out of their services.

But the current state of the world for AC is they aren't burning staff time chasing money they may never get, at the risk of not having a customer who doesn't want to pay a regular fare, anyway.

moondog

I'm guessing AC was betting that she'd see the $18k demand, and decide that to disappear quietly; after all, there are other airlines out there, and who has time for pointless legal battles when no actual losses have been incurred? But, for whatever reason, Ms Qian decided to hit back.

Nazdoom

I can give her the benefit of the doubt considering (1) how normal it is to make purchases via WeChat in China, (2) how normal it is to see different prices for tickets and how confusing the fare class system can be to infrequent flyers, and (3) the fact the allegation against her hasn't been tested in court.

On my Facebook feed these days I am frequently targetted with Korean ads (was recently over there) offerring half-price J and F tickets from a third-party site. I can wager a guess it's either a points broker or stolen tickets, but I can certainly envision my mom (a non-traveler) or friends falling for it thinking it was a normal travel agent "beating" online prices. I mean... I've paid $1000 for YVR-TPE one-way in AC J, is what she paid for YYZ-PVG so low a reasonable person (not a frequent traveler) must have known better?

I think these airline bans set a really bad precedent. Access to air travel is essential in today's age. Yes, the YYZ-PVG route is served by other airlines, but there are routes and Canadian communities that are only served by AC. Airlines should be able to swiftly and promptly refuse service for aviation and passenger or staff security reasons, but that process should have a clear and independent appeals process (courts are $$$) to test whether it was reasonable. Today AC bans a lady who profited from fraudulent reservation she may or may not have known about, tomorrow AC gets to ban a guy erroneously alleging he stole some kit kats and he suddenly can't travel out of his remote community anymore unless he coughs up enough money for lawyers? IMO monetary disputes should be AC's responsibility to take to court, without unilateral airline bans; security concerns should be easily ban-able but with consumer friendly appeals system. We have access to basic banking because banking is essential in today's world; I am baffled we don't have comparable protection to ensure access to air travel.

Fiordland

The problem is Air Canada's attitude to this. Someone is selling AC tickets on this weird social media site purchased with stolen credit cards. If AC loss prevention people were interested in fixing the problem they would want to go after the seller. This passenger can help achieve that goal. Instead of doing something productive in addressing the route cause they are focused on creating bad press for themselves.

As for going to the police. Good luck with that. Over the last couple of years I see a couple of request for quotes and PO that have come to the company I work at where they were clearly fraudulent. They wanted to buy product on 30 day terms have it shipped to a freight forwarding company and when you called up the buyer using the companies real contact info instead of what was on the PO you discovered it was not real. We tried going to the police, since we have phone numbers and contact details and all of that for them to follow up. Your forwarded to an RCMP number that is so overloaded you can't get anywhere. Called the local MP, he was more interested in explaining how this is the fault of the party in power, not overly interested in oscillating anything. So the police are not that helpful.

Stranger

Stranger

Stranger

RangerNS

Your missing my point. I'm suggesting that from AC's perspective they are helping to fix the problem; users of the grey market are the problem. If an individual customer is lost in publicizing the evils of the grey market, so be it. (Alternatively: there is no logic, compassion, or strategic thinking: they are out $18k and want it, sorry-not-sorry random individual)

If the grey market is necessary in places that are not "the west" and working to destroy it is an invalid strategy from AC, well , that is a different and legitimate discussion to have.

StuckInYYZ

Would you not forward the fake order to the real company and say "Hey, we received this fake PO from someone claiming to be you... you might want to investigate"... If for nothing else, this would be considered a reputational risk and financial risk... Not something you'd want spreading out in the business community. They'd have a good reason to investigate and go after the perpetrator.

If they have an official account at Wechat, they can at least do SOME investigation. There would be a validated cell phone number for the account as well as IP information. If CaptainCool was lazy, the IP would lead to a cell phone provider. Also, changing cell numbers can be tedious and painful so likely not done often. If he's been around for at least a year, then it's likely they can trace the owner of the cell phone with the co-operation of Tencent and the cell provider (and possibly an ISP). It might not pinpoint the person down to a few feet (like the TV shows do), but if the captain didn't completely cover their tracks, there should be a few ways to locate this guy.

Sounds like a lot of work, but it is in the best interests of Tencent and Air Canada (or any other airline).

JustSomeGuy1978

I don't think Air Canada is bound by the innocent until proven guilty rule. In their eyes a ticket was purchased with a stolen credit it card, they are within their right to refuse to do business with anyone involved in the purchase until 1) they are made whole for the lost funds 2) it can be shown that one of the parties involved in the purchase was an innocent victim of fraud.

Certainly no one has charged her criminally with fraud, just refused service.

sunzi

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Incorrect, she paid the fraudster who bought the ticket with a stolen CC which she wouldn't have known from the current facts. Whether it is legally her fault, you do not know that for sure. The courts will decide that.

Finally, if the situation happened with my credit card, I would want the police and AC to go after the fraudster not this lady. How would going after her prevent this from happening again? They will just go scam some other unsuspecting person.

sunzi

It might not be easy to know if the CC stolen if used fraudulently for the first time but she used the services 3 times over 18 months. Even if a different stolen CC was used each time, the name on the ticket is the same for all 3 trips. After the first trip, AC finds out a stolen CC is used. You would think AC fraud detection would flag it the next time she was issued a ticket given that CC name not the same as passenger but it wasn't. Then, she was still able to take a third trip. Instead of wasting lawyer resources and money going after her, IMHO, it is better to spend money and resources on beefing up your anti fraud detection.