AC imposes 'no fly' ban, demands $18K from woman after ticket scam
#182
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: YXE
Posts: 3,050
Originally Posted by CBC
'Hazard to property' cited
The November letter [from AC] also cited Qian for "prohibited conduct" under the airline's tariff rule that covers "any unusual hazard or risk to property."
#183
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: SFO
Programs: AC SE MM, SQ Silver, Bonvoy Tit LTG, Hyatt Glob, HH Diamond
Posts: 44,186
I'd just quote from the original CBC article cited in post #1 :
So at least its AC's allegation that there was circumstances involved beyond just the failure to tender payment. Or at least that's my read of it.
So at least its AC's allegation that there was circumstances involved beyond just the failure to tender payment. Or at least that's my read of it.
#184
Join Date: Jun 2016
Programs: air miles
Posts: 277
Additional thoughts. We don't know how sophisticated CaptainCooll's scam was;
He might have a credit card burner and burned the card in Anne's name and used that card to purchase the tickets. If the card has her name on it and is linked to her home address Air Canada can say "hey we sold the tickets to an Ann Qian at this address. You are Ann Qian at this address";
He might have a shell TA set up (I don't know how difficult it is to set up an OTA). He then would have presented himself as working as an agent of Air Canada to Ann, and as working as an agent of Ann to Air Canada, with the ability to bind the two to contracts. I don't know how the law treats this situation.
Also shouldn't a random anonymous stranger buying an airline ticket for Ann using a CC that is not in her name raise a whole bunch of red flags not just with AC but also with the CBSA??? From my armchair watching of border security this seems to be a pretty large red flag. Now, it's possible the question never came up during CBSA questioning or the scam was sophisticated enough to mask this fact (see above)
#185
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: トロント
Programs: IHG Gold
Posts: 4,809
Note sure I have ever seen $2200 CAD for round trip PVG-YVR on Air Canada but if someone has I stand corrected
#186
Join Date: May 2012
Location: BKK/SIN/YYZ/YUL
Programs: DL, AC, Bonvoy, Accor, Hilton
Posts: 2,889
As a reminder, purchases of goods and services made using illegally or fraudulently obtained credit card information are deemed to have been acquired through an illegal means. A party who has directly benefited from that illegal activity can be be pursued under both civil and criminal law and to be expected to disgorge the proceeds/benefits of the unlawfully obtained benefit/financial gain. To those proclaiming the woman's "innocence", that is a side issue. the undeniable fact is that she has benefited from a crime. In Canada, the direct benefit from a criminal act is not allowed. \
To those criticizing Air Canada's fraud detection practices, they are again reminded that financial institutions are not forthcoming with information and that it can and does literally take months to obtain information. The banks are acting to protect their own liability, otherwise they would be on the hook for the vast sums of money lost to cyber fraud and identity theft every year. Air Canada has to walk a very thin line of political correctness. It was suggested that the airline demand credit cards from high risk travelers. The airline would be accused of racial or cultural profiling if the nationalities most often implicated in identity theft were selected for closer scrutiny at checkin. It is an all or none approach. Consider the furor and claims of prejudice when some people are selected for secondary security screening now. EVA demands the CC at checkin and the complaints from westerners litter forums.
To those proclaiming that the woman is some sort of angelic ingenue, an unsophisticated bumpkin from a backward country who was taken advantage of, please note that she was from big modern city and had been living in Canada for some time. She had navigated the complexities of visas, airports, life in both China and Canada and the many scammers who are found everywhere in China. The Chinese government has enough warning notices posted to warn its nationals about credit card theft that one would have to be blind and without hearing to have missed them. As a reminder, inside PVG airport, after the "secure" entry" there are multiple touts pushing iphones. Prudent people avoid them. People who wish to take a chance on counterfeit or stolen property purchase the item. I offer that the woman willfully purchased the ticket knowing that the deal was not legitimate.
To those criticizing Air Canada's fraud detection practices, they are again reminded that financial institutions are not forthcoming with information and that it can and does literally take months to obtain information. The banks are acting to protect their own liability, otherwise they would be on the hook for the vast sums of money lost to cyber fraud and identity theft every year. Air Canada has to walk a very thin line of political correctness. It was suggested that the airline demand credit cards from high risk travelers. The airline would be accused of racial or cultural profiling if the nationalities most often implicated in identity theft were selected for closer scrutiny at checkin. It is an all or none approach. Consider the furor and claims of prejudice when some people are selected for secondary security screening now. EVA demands the CC at checkin and the complaints from westerners litter forums.
To those proclaiming that the woman is some sort of angelic ingenue, an unsophisticated bumpkin from a backward country who was taken advantage of, please note that she was from big modern city and had been living in Canada for some time. She had navigated the complexities of visas, airports, life in both China and Canada and the many scammers who are found everywhere in China. The Chinese government has enough warning notices posted to warn its nationals about credit card theft that one would have to be blind and without hearing to have missed them. As a reminder, inside PVG airport, after the "secure" entry" there are multiple touts pushing iphones. Prudent people avoid them. People who wish to take a chance on counterfeit or stolen property purchase the item. I offer that the woman willfully purchased the ticket knowing that the deal was not legitimate.
#187
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 319
The November letter also cited Qian for "prohibited conduct" under the airline's tariff rule that covers "any unusual hazard or risk to property."Air passenger rights activist Gabor Lukacs says that makes no sense and banning Qian is beyond the power of a common carrier such as Air Canada.
"If someone was threatening to beat up the pilot or if someone was smoking in the lavatory, those are grounds for refusing to transport a passenger," says Lukacs. "But an airline cannot refuse to transport someone just because they have a [financial] dispute with a person."
#188
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 96
As a reminder, purchases of goods and services made using illegally or fraudulently obtained credit card information are deemed to have been acquired through an illegal means. A party who has directly benefited from that illegal activity can be be pursued under both civil and criminal law and to be expected to disgorge the proceeds/benefits of the unlawfully obtained benefit/financial gain. To those proclaiming the woman's "innocence", that is a side issue. the undeniable fact is that she has benefited from a crime. In Canada, the direct benefit from a criminal act is not allowed. \
To those criticizing Air Canada's fraud detection practices, they are again reminded that financial institutions are not forthcoming with information and that it can and does literally take months to obtain information. The banks are acting to protect their own liability, otherwise they would be on the hook for the vast sums of money lost to cyber fraud and identity theft every year. Air Canada has to walk a very thin line of political correctness. It was suggested that the airline demand credit cards from high risk travelers. The airline would be accused of racial or cultural profiling if the nationalities most often implicated in identity theft were selected for closer scrutiny at checkin. It is an all or none approach. Consider the furor and claims of prejudice when some people are selected for secondary security screening now. EVA demands the CC at checkin and the complaints from westerners litter forums.
To those proclaiming that the woman is some sort of angelic ingenue, an unsophisticated bumpkin from a backward country who was taken advantage of, please note that she was from big modern city and had been living in Canada for some time. She had navigated the complexities of visas, airports, life in both China and Canada and the many scammers who are found everywhere in China. The Chinese government has enough warning notices posted to warn its nationals about credit card theft that one would have to be blind and without hearing to have missed them. As a reminder, inside PVG airport, after the "secure" entry" there are multiple touts pushing iphones. Prudent people avoid them. People who wish to take a chance on counterfeit or stolen property purchase the item. I offer that the woman willfully purchased the ticket knowing that the deal was not legitimate.
To those criticizing Air Canada's fraud detection practices, they are again reminded that financial institutions are not forthcoming with information and that it can and does literally take months to obtain information. The banks are acting to protect their own liability, otherwise they would be on the hook for the vast sums of money lost to cyber fraud and identity theft every year. Air Canada has to walk a very thin line of political correctness. It was suggested that the airline demand credit cards from high risk travelers. The airline would be accused of racial or cultural profiling if the nationalities most often implicated in identity theft were selected for closer scrutiny at checkin. It is an all or none approach. Consider the furor and claims of prejudice when some people are selected for secondary security screening now. EVA demands the CC at checkin and the complaints from westerners litter forums.
To those proclaiming that the woman is some sort of angelic ingenue, an unsophisticated bumpkin from a backward country who was taken advantage of, please note that she was from big modern city and had been living in Canada for some time. She had navigated the complexities of visas, airports, life in both China and Canada and the many scammers who are found everywhere in China. The Chinese government has enough warning notices posted to warn its nationals about credit card theft that one would have to be blind and without hearing to have missed them. As a reminder, inside PVG airport, after the "secure" entry" there are multiple touts pushing iphones. Prudent people avoid them. People who wish to take a chance on counterfeit or stolen property purchase the item. I offer that the woman willfully purchased the ticket knowing that the deal was not legitimate.
by this stupidity rationale, nobody falls for scams in big cities?
#189
Join Date: Jun 2016
Programs: air miles
Posts: 277
#190
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: YLW
Programs: AC- SE100 1MM, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Platinum, National Executive, Nexus/GE
Posts: 4,281
Just fascinating to read the comments, opinions and assumptions from so many!
Just when you think you figured some folks out, you learn something new
I am not passing judgement or nor will I comment on this issue
Just sitting back enjoying my popcorn
Just when you think you figured some folks out, you learn something new
I am not passing judgement or nor will I comment on this issue
Just sitting back enjoying my popcorn
#191
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: SFO
Programs: AC SE MM, SQ Silver, Bonvoy Tit LTG, Hyatt Glob, HH Diamond
Posts: 44,186
It would be quite a hassle to me and them if this ever caused problems at the airport.
#192
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: YYZ
Programs: A3*G AC*nobody TK*nobody
Posts: 1,967
TL;DR
My question was, first of all is that a 'REAL' ticket she use to get her boarding pass in the past. What I mean 'REAL' include employee ticket, reward ticket etc... Otherwise, AC may have a serious trouble in IT department (joke?) if someone can fake a plane ticket (with PNR and e-Ticket #), able to gone past the check-in process and get a BP and not been detected in real time. That's sounds like a serious [security] issue. Or is it possible for an insider like 'Captain Cooll' have access to internal AC system to create a ticket, but somehow pocket the money (sounds rather risky).
And of course, we don't know the timing from when the ticket was purchased and the flight taken place. If it is rather short period, the actual credit card victim may not notice the charges until next billing cycle to call in.
IMHO, the story still didn't really line up.
I wonder if she collect aeroplan as well... what happen to her miles
My question was, first of all is that a 'REAL' ticket she use to get her boarding pass in the past. What I mean 'REAL' include employee ticket, reward ticket etc... Otherwise, AC may have a serious trouble in IT department (joke?) if someone can fake a plane ticket (with PNR and e-Ticket #), able to gone past the check-in process and get a BP and not been detected in real time. That's sounds like a serious [security] issue. Or is it possible for an insider like 'Captain Cooll' have access to internal AC system to create a ticket, but somehow pocket the money (sounds rather risky).
And of course, we don't know the timing from when the ticket was purchased and the flight taken place. If it is rather short period, the actual credit card victim may not notice the charges until next billing cycle to call in.
IMHO, the story still didn't really line up.
I wonder if she collect aeroplan as well... what happen to her miles
#193
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 17,261
And of course, we don't know the timing from when the ticket was purchased and the flight taken place. If it is rather short period, the actual credit card victim may not notice the charges until next billing cycle to call in.
IMHO, the story still didn't really line up.
Damn straight, the story doesn't line up.
#194
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 41,823
a) YYZ-YVR
b) YVR-PVG
c) PVG-YYZ
Any one of us could easily pull this off for less than $5,000 in J by combining "a" and "b" using a stopover.
#195
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 17,261
She became a repeat customer after flying three times with Air Canada over almost a year and a half without an issue.
But in November, when Qian went to Toronto's Pearson airport to catch her fourth flight, she was denied boarding and told she was on Air Canada's "no fly" list.
But in November, when Qian went to Toronto's Pearson airport to catch her fourth flight, she was denied boarding and told she was on Air Canada's "no fly" list.