Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Airlines and Mileage Programs > Air Canada | Aeroplan
Reload this Page >

AC imposes 'no fly' ban, demands $18K from woman after ticket scam

AC imposes 'no fly' ban, demands $18K from woman after ticket scam

Old Jun 5, 2019, 11:29 pm
  #181  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 38
What I don't understand is that on OTAs one can normally get legitimate RT PVG to/from YVR biz class tix for US$1800-2200 on CZ, HU, HX, JL, and AC. Spending $9400 for 5 J tix is not much of a savings.
SanDiegoTrvllr is online now  
Old Jun 5, 2019, 11:32 pm
  #182  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: YXE
Posts: 3,050
Originally Posted by Genetk44
I dont believe there were allegations that she was disruptive to crew or passengers...that was either her lawyer or the passenger rights guy using that as an example of a legit reason for an airline to ban a passenger from future service.
I'd just quote from the original CBC article cited in post #1:

Originally Posted by CBC

'Hazard to property' cited

The November letter [from AC] also cited Qian for "prohibited conduct" under the airline's tariff rule that covers "any unusual hazard or risk to property."
So at least its AC's allegation that there was circumstances involved beyond just the failure to tender payment. Or at least that's my read of it.
canadiancow likes this.
pitz is offline  
Old Jun 6, 2019, 12:28 am
  #183  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: SFO
Programs: AC SE MM, SQ Silver, Bonvoy Tit LTG, Hyatt Glob, HH Diamond
Posts: 44,186
Originally Posted by pitz
I'd just quote from the original CBC article cited in post #1 :



So at least its AC's allegation that there was circumstances involved beyond just the failure to tender payment. Or at least that's my read of it.
I have zero faith in AC's allegations.
jc94 likes this.
canadiancow is online now  
Old Jun 6, 2019, 7:16 am
  #184  
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Programs: air miles
Posts: 277
Originally Posted by SanDiegoTrvllr
What I don't understand is that on OTAs one can normally get legitimate RT PVG to/from YVR biz class tix for US$1800-2200 on CZ, HU, HX, JL, and AC. Spending $9400 for 5 J tix is not much of a savings.
If true this says to me that not only was she naive enough to fall for this scam (no comment on her character plenty of people fall for it) but she was also ignorant of, and too lazy to research, the market rates for the fares she purchased.

Additional thoughts. We don't know how sophisticated CaptainCooll's scam was;
He might have a credit card burner and burned the card in Anne's name and used that card to purchase the tickets. If the card has her name on it and is linked to her home address Air Canada can say "hey we sold the tickets to an Ann Qian at this address. You are Ann Qian at this address";
He might have a shell TA set up (I don't know how difficult it is to set up an OTA). He then would have presented himself as working as an agent of Air Canada to Ann, and as working as an agent of Ann to Air Canada, with the ability to bind the two to contracts. I don't know how the law treats this situation.
Also shouldn't a random anonymous stranger buying an airline ticket for Ann using a CC that is not in her name raise a whole bunch of red flags not just with AC but also with the CBSA??? From my armchair watching of border security this seems to be a pretty large red flag. Now, it's possible the question never came up during CBSA questioning or the scam was sophisticated enough to mask this fact (see above)
JustSomeGuy1978 is offline  
Old Jun 6, 2019, 7:28 am
  #185  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: トロント
Programs: IHG Gold
Posts: 4,809
Originally Posted by SanDiegoTrvllr
What I don't understand is that on OTAs one can normally get legitimate RT PVG to/from YVR biz class tix for US$1800-2200 on CZ, HU, HX, JL, and AC. Spending $9400 for 5 J tix is not much of a savings.
Just because an OTA advertises something does not mean it is actually available.

Note sure I have ever seen $2200 CAD for round trip PVG-YVR on Air Canada but if someone has I stand corrected
5mm likes this.
mapleg is offline  
Old Jun 6, 2019, 7:45 am
  #186  
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: BKK/SIN/YYZ/YUL
Programs: DL, AC, Bonvoy, Accor, Hilton
Posts: 2,889
As a reminder, purchases of goods and services made using illegally or fraudulently obtained credit card information are deemed to have been acquired through an illegal means. A party who has directly benefited from that illegal activity can be be pursued under both civil and criminal law and to be expected to disgorge the proceeds/benefits of the unlawfully obtained benefit/financial gain. To those proclaiming the woman's "innocence", that is a side issue. the undeniable fact is that she has benefited from a crime. In Canada, the direct benefit from a criminal act is not allowed. \

To those criticizing Air Canada's fraud detection practices, they are again reminded that financial institutions are not forthcoming with information and that it can and does literally take months to obtain information. The banks are acting to protect their own liability, otherwise they would be on the hook for the vast sums of money lost to cyber fraud and identity theft every year. Air Canada has to walk a very thin line of political correctness. It was suggested that the airline demand credit cards from high risk travelers. The airline would be accused of racial or cultural profiling if the nationalities most often implicated in identity theft were selected for closer scrutiny at checkin. It is an all or none approach. Consider the furor and claims of prejudice when some people are selected for secondary security screening now. EVA demands the CC at checkin and the complaints from westerners litter forums.

To those proclaiming that the woman is some sort of angelic ingenue, an unsophisticated bumpkin from a backward country who was taken advantage of, please note that she was from big modern city and had been living in Canada for some time. She had navigated the complexities of visas, airports, life in both China and Canada and the many scammers who are found everywhere in China. The Chinese government has enough warning notices posted to warn its nationals about credit card theft that one would have to be blind and without hearing to have missed them. As a reminder, inside PVG airport, after the "secure" entry" there are multiple touts pushing iphones. Prudent people avoid them. People who wish to take a chance on counterfeit or stolen property purchase the item. I offer that the woman willfully purchased the ticket knowing that the deal was not legitimate.
yscleo, m.y, CanadaDH and 2 others like this.
Transpacificflyer is offline  
Old Jun 6, 2019, 8:14 am
  #187  
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 319
Originally Posted by pitz
I'd just quote from the original CBC article cited in post #1:



So at least its AC's allegation that there was circumstances involved beyond just the failure to tender payment. Or at least that's my read of it.
I would respectfully submit that that is not what AC is alleging if you read it in its entirity.....but they are trying to imply her buying the tickets the way she did are a breach or prohibited behaviour of their rules..rules that also cover any unusual hazard or behaviour....if she did something that was hazardous you can bet they wouldnt be so circumspect in their wording...its just wordgames by AC.

The November letter also cited Qian for "prohibited conduct" under the airline's tariff rule that covers "any unusual hazard or risk to property."Air passenger rights activist Gabor Lukacs says that makes no sense and banning Qian is beyond the power of a common carrier such as Air Canada.
"If someone was threatening to beat up the pilot or if someone was smoking in the lavatory, those are grounds for refusing to transport a passenger," says Lukacs. "But an airline cannot refuse to transport someone just because they have a [financial] dispute with a person."
Genetk44 is offline  
Old Jun 6, 2019, 8:16 am
  #188  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 96
Originally Posted by Transpacificflyer
As a reminder, purchases of goods and services made using illegally or fraudulently obtained credit card information are deemed to have been acquired through an illegal means. A party who has directly benefited from that illegal activity can be be pursued under both civil and criminal law and to be expected to disgorge the proceeds/benefits of the unlawfully obtained benefit/financial gain. To those proclaiming the woman's "innocence", that is a side issue. the undeniable fact is that she has benefited from a crime. In Canada, the direct benefit from a criminal act is not allowed. \

To those criticizing Air Canada's fraud detection practices, they are again reminded that financial institutions are not forthcoming with information and that it can and does literally take months to obtain information. The banks are acting to protect their own liability, otherwise they would be on the hook for the vast sums of money lost to cyber fraud and identity theft every year. Air Canada has to walk a very thin line of political correctness. It was suggested that the airline demand credit cards from high risk travelers. The airline would be accused of racial or cultural profiling if the nationalities most often implicated in identity theft were selected for closer scrutiny at checkin. It is an all or none approach. Consider the furor and claims of prejudice when some people are selected for secondary security screening now. EVA demands the CC at checkin and the complaints from westerners litter forums.

To those proclaiming that the woman is some sort of angelic ingenue, an unsophisticated bumpkin from a backward country who was taken advantage of, please note that she was from big modern city and had been living in Canada for some time. She had navigated the complexities of visas, airports, life in both China and Canada and the many scammers who are found everywhere in China. The Chinese government has enough warning notices posted to warn its nationals about credit card theft that one would have to be blind and without hearing to have missed them. As a reminder, inside PVG airport, after the "secure" entry" there are multiple touts pushing iphones. Prudent people avoid them. People who wish to take a chance on counterfeit or stolen property purchase the item. I offer that the woman willfully purchased the ticket knowing that the deal was not legitimate.
this is the dumbest thing I've read in a while

by this stupidity rationale, nobody falls for scams in big cities?
gilboman is offline  
Old Jun 6, 2019, 8:21 am
  #189  
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Programs: air miles
Posts: 277
Originally Posted by gilboman
this is the dumbest thing I've read in a while

by this stupidity rationale, nobody falls for scams in big cities?

No she is clearly naive because she fell for the scam, not because of where she is from.
JustSomeGuy1978 is offline  
Old Jun 6, 2019, 8:38 am
  #190  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: YLW
Programs: AC- SE100 1MM, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Platinum, National Executive, Nexus/GE
Posts: 4,281
Just fascinating to read the comments, opinions and assumptions from so many!
Just when you think you figured some folks out, you learn something new

I am not passing judgement or nor will I comment on this issue
Just sitting back enjoying my popcorn
HerpaYvr is offline  
Old Jun 6, 2019, 10:13 am
  #191  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: SFO
Programs: AC SE MM, SQ Silver, Bonvoy Tit LTG, Hyatt Glob, HH Diamond
Posts: 44,186
Originally Posted by JustSomeGuy1978
Also shouldn't a random anonymous stranger buying an airline ticket for Ann using a CC that is not in her name raise a whole bunch of red flags not just with AC but also with the CBSA???
I've purchased tickets for people who appear to be random strangers. Sometimes I fly with them (separate PNR), sometimes not.

It would be quite a hassle to me and them if this ever caused problems at the airport.
canadiancow is online now  
Old Jun 7, 2019, 6:10 pm
  #192  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: YYZ
Programs: A3*G AC*nobody TK*nobody
Posts: 1,967
TL;DR

My question was, first of all is that a 'REAL' ticket she use to get her boarding pass in the past. What I mean 'REAL' include employee ticket, reward ticket etc... Otherwise, AC may have a serious trouble in IT department (joke?) if someone can fake a plane ticket (with PNR and e-Ticket #), able to gone past the check-in process and get a BP and not been detected in real time. That's sounds like a serious [security] issue. Or is it possible for an insider like 'Captain Cooll' have access to internal AC system to create a ticket, but somehow pocket the money (sounds rather risky).

And of course, we don't know the timing from when the ticket was purchased and the flight taken place. If it is rather short period, the actual credit card victim may not notice the charges until next billing cycle to call in.

IMHO, the story still didn't really line up.

I wonder if she collect aeroplan as well... what happen to her miles
Away from YYZ is offline  
Old Jun 7, 2019, 6:47 pm
  #193  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 17,261

And of course, we don't know the timing from when the ticket was purchased and the flight taken place. If it is rather short period, the actual credit card victim may not notice the charges until next billing cycle to call in.

IMHO, the story still didn't really line up.
She bought 3 tickets and flew on them all the same way from the same source over a year and a half. Then, AC came after her.
Damn straight, the story doesn't line up.
rickg523 is offline  
Old Jun 7, 2019, 6:58 pm
  #194  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 41,823
Originally Posted by rickg523
She bought 3 tickets and flew on them all the same way from the same source over a year and a half. Then, AC came after her.
Damn straight, the story doesn't line up.
While we don't have all of the facts, my guess is that "3 tickets" refers to:
a) YYZ-YVR
b) YVR-PVG
c) PVG-YYZ

Any one of us could easily pull this off for less than $5,000 in J by combining "a" and "b" using a stopover.
moondog is offline  
Old Jun 7, 2019, 7:09 pm
  #195  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 17,261
Originally Posted by moondog
While we don't have all of the facts, my guess is that "3 tickets" refers to:
a) YYZ-YVR
b) YVR-PVG
c) PVG-YYZ

Any one of us could easily pull this off for less than $5,000 in J by combining "a" and "b" using a stopover.
Are you saying she flew those flights in succession?
She became a repeat customer after flying three times with Air Canada over almost a year and a half without an issue.
But in November, when Qian went to Toronto's Pearson airport to catch her fourth flight, she was denied boarding and told she was on Air Canada's "no fly" list.
rickg523 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.