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AC imposes 'no fly' ban, demands $18K from woman after ticket scam

AC imposes 'no fly' ban, demands $18K from woman after ticket scam

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Old Jun 5, 19, 2:22 pm
  #151  
 
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Originally Posted by StuckInYYZ View Post
Would you not forward the fake order to the real company and say "Hey, we received this fake PO from someone claiming to be you... you might want to investigate"... If for nothing else, this would be considered a reputational risk and financial risk... Not something you'd want spreading out in the business community. They'd have a good reason to investigate and go after the perpetrator.
We did. It is a well established manufacturer based in Canada with around 500 employees that has been around for decades. There A/P department was overwhelmed with the number of false transactions. In our case our people clued in that something was not correct with the odd wording on the PO, the weird destination, so we never shipped any thing, however it sounded like there many other companies that did.

Originally Posted by StuckInYYZ View Post
If they have an official account at Wechat, they can at least do SOME investigation. There would be a validated cell phone number for the account as well as IP information. If CaptainCool was lazy, the IP would lead to a cell phone provider. Also, changing cell numbers can be tedious and painful so likely not done often. If he's been around for at least a year, then it's likely they can trace the owner of the cell phone with the co-operation of Tencent and the cell provider (and possibly an ISP). It might not pinpoint the person down to a few feet (like the TV shows do), but if the captain didn't completely cover their tracks, there should be a few ways to locate this guy.

Sounds like a lot of work, but it is in the best interests of Tencent and Air Canada (or any other airline).
Here money ended up in CaptainCools bank account via whatever payment process she used. There has to be a financial trail. If I was Air Canada I would be far more interested in finding and stopping Captain Cool, than this lady.
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Old Jun 5, 19, 2:22 pm
  #152  
 
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No one said she was disruptive. Her lawyer used it as an example of a reason for someone to be put on a no fly list i.e. disruptive/abusive to airline staff. I'm not even sure they called her a liar as she claims they did.
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Old Jun 5, 19, 2:24 pm
  #153  
 
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Originally Posted by RangerNS View Post
Airlines are always pay first. And Air Canada is free to negotiate with this individual for the conditions of future service. Which seems to be paying up on past service.
I used the example of the unlimited multi-month flight passes because they are an example of AC retail customers being able to enter into contracts with AC that involve an ongoing obligation and are not fully "pay first".

I just think its scary, even for 'average' customers who may be working for an employer on shaky financial grounds, if indeed, AC is able to use denial of future (fully-paid) service to an individual as a form of recourse against non-payment. A fly a bunch on AC for a mining company that stops paying its AC flight pass bills, and you get denied when you try to take your own family to Florida for a vacation after you're terminated sort of deal.
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Old Jun 5, 19, 2:29 pm
  #154  
 
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Originally Posted by pitz View Post
I used the example of the unlimited multi-month flight passes because they are an example of AC retail customers being able to enter into contracts with AC that involve an ongoing obligation and are not fully "pay first".

I just think its scary, even for 'average' customers who may be working for an employer on shaky financial grounds, if indeed, AC is able to use denial of future (fully-paid) service to an individual as a form of recourse against non-payment. A fly a bunch on AC for a mining company that stops paying its AC flight pass bills, and you get denied when you try to take your own family to Florida for a vacation after you're terminated sort of deal.
I think the difference here is that your company has stopped paying it's bills vs a charge back from the credit card company. And presumably AC is contacting everyone imaginable at your company to collect payment. And presumably you book your family travel through a separate TA.
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Old Jun 5, 19, 2:30 pm
  #155  
 
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Originally Posted by Stranger View Post
That's not correct, as far as AC is concerned. The ticket is in her name, the contract is between her and AC. That there was a third party that did the work for her is immaterial. And good luck with the police; especially since the guy is likely in China or Belarus.
Is the contract between AC and her? Not clear that is the case.

She paid Capt Cool money for a ticket at a negotiated price. There is a contract between the two of them.

We also don't know how this Capt Cool purchased the ticket, did he do it through a travel agency or directly on the AC website? Did the payment page ask for the name and address of the credit card owner separately from the passenger name?

Capt Cool purchased the ticket from AC at a negotiated price. There is a contract between the two of them.

She is not pretending to be an agent for Air Canada, this Captain Cool person is. If I was AC I would be more concerned about that. Given AC flies into China, they can probably follow up in that country with their local legal council or staff on the group. Belarus may be a bit more difficult.
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Last edited by Fiordland; Jun 5, 19 at 2:37 pm
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Old Jun 5, 19, 2:36 pm
  #156  
 
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Originally Posted by Fiordland View Post
We did. It is a well established manufacturer based in Canada with around 500 employees that has been around for decades. There A/P department was overwhelmed with the number of false transactions. In our case our people clued in that something was not correct with the odd wording on the PO, the weird destination, so we never shipped any thing, however it sounded like there many other companies that did.



Here money ended up in CaptainCools bank account via whatever payment process she used. There has to be a financial trail. If I was Air Canada I would be far more interested in finding and stopping Captain Cool, than this lady.
CaptianCool is CaptianCool17 by now, having been shut down 16 other times. I suspect AC wants all business to be direct, and for sure wants the grey market to be gone. Quietly sniping off a single player helps that goal not even a little bit.

Originally Posted by pitz View Post
I used the example of the unlimited multi-month flight passes because they are an example of AC retail customers being able to enter into contracts with AC that involve an ongoing obligation and are not fully "pay first".

I just think its scary, even for 'average' customers who may be working for an employer on shaky financial grounds, if indeed, AC is able to use denial of future (fully-paid) service to an individual as a form of recourse against non-payment. A fly a bunch on AC for a mining company that stops paying its AC flight pass bills, and you get denied when you try to take your own family to Florida for a vacation after you're terminated sort of deal.
I'll admit to having forgotten about flight passes. If it was a one-person flight pass, paid for (or not, here), by $JOB, then that is tricky. A group pool of credits? I would assume & hope that AC would just deny an individual from tapping into that locked-out pool.

But that hypothetical is just that. The details in this case are one person, a series of distinct transactions, no ongoing contractual relationship.
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Old Jun 5, 19, 2:37 pm
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Originally Posted by Stranger View Post
That's not correct, as far as AC is concerned. The ticket is in her name, the contract is between her and AC. That there was a third party that did the work for her is immaterial. And good luck with the police; especially since the guy is likely in China or Belarus.
What AC believes and what is legal are different things. The arbitrator will decide what is allowed or not.
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Old Jun 5, 19, 2:37 pm
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Originally Posted by Fiordland View Post
.....this Captain Cool person is. If I was AC I would be more concerned about that. Given AC flies into China, they can probably follow up in that country with their local legal council or staff on the group. Belarus may be a bit more difficult.
How did you come to the conclusion that Captain Cooll is based in China, not Canada or a 3rd country?
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Old Jun 5, 19, 2:40 pm
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Originally Posted by RangerNS View Post
First, people have the same name, so 3 events joined by unreliable data in 18 months isn't quite a pattern. Only international tickets would (at the airport) need linking to some unique identifier.

Second, AC isn't spending money or resources. "going after her", they are leaving the problem up to her to deal with. They just have stopped doing business with her.

The only real problem I see is if anyone else named "Ann Qian" wants to take a domestic AC flight.
I am sure that Ann Qian collects Aeroplan points. I would be surprised that she did not! It's not difficult to see which Aeroplan account those flights were credited.

Last edited by Clipper801; Jun 5, 19 at 2:49 pm
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Old Jun 5, 19, 2:46 pm
  #160  
 
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Originally Posted by Clipper801 View Post
How did you come to the conclusion that Captain Cooll is based in China, not Canada or a 3rd country?
I don't, I was replying to a comment by Stranger that suggested AC would have problems going after Captian Cool since for all we know this person could be out of China or Belarus. He could just as easily be based in China, Canada or a host of other countries. Yes, it is harder for AC to go after him in China than Canada, however given AC does business in China, they should be able to handle this quite easily if that is in fact where the person is based.
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Old Jun 5, 19, 2:49 pm
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Originally Posted by Fiordland View Post
I don't, I was replying to a comment by Stranger that suggested AC would have problems going after Captian Cool since for all we know this person could be out of China or Belarus. He could just as easily be based in China, Canada or a host of other countries. Yes, it is harder for AC to go after him in China than Canada, however given AC does business in China, they should be able to handle this quite easily if that is in fact where the person is based.
Based on what I read on the Internet, Captain Cooll had a contact telephone no. with an area code of 514, which would be Montreal area.
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Old Jun 5, 19, 2:54 pm
  #162  
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Originally Posted by Clipper801 View Post
Based on what I read on the Internet, Captain Cooll had a contact telephone no. with an area code of 514, which would be Montreal area.
I pay $2/month for a 647 number that forwards to my 650 number so that Canadian friends and family can call me without paying long distance.

If I wanted to solicit business in the Montreal area, I could set up a 514 number in about 30 seconds.
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Old Jun 5, 19, 2:54 pm
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Originally Posted by tcook052 View Post
No indication of that in the linked article so that seems a bit of a reach in MHO as a poster.

.
1. I said 'could'... as a point of consideration. Its not a 'reach' to suggest it could, IMO

2. You seem to say since there was no mention of a TA involved as a middle man, all the conjecture everyone is making about how online tickets work and how this event should be viewed through the prism of 'direct airline sale' is therefore accurate?

3. There is NOTHING in any of the public facing stores as to how the tickets were acquired FROM AC. Yes, how the flier got them, but not how they were obtained from the airline- one way or the other.


Just saying
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Old Jun 5, 19, 3:03 pm
  #164  
 
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Originally Posted by Clipper801 View Post
Based on what I read on the Internet, Captain Cooll had a contact telephone no. with an area code of 514, which would be Montreal area.
Phone numbers are ever so easy to spoof.
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Old Jun 5, 19, 3:04 pm
  #165  
 
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Originally Posted by RangerNS View Post
CaptianCool is CaptianCool17 by now, having been shut down 16 other times. I suspect AC wants all business to be direct, and for sure wants the grey market to be gone. Quietly sniping off a single player helps that goal not even a little bit.
Sure, and if AC really wanted to not have their network of agents, they could stop dealing through those channels tomorrow. Re-open the ticket counters at the airports. Start accepting briefcases full of cash. Only allow CC reservations a month or two in advance of a flight unless there's some special verification schema. Presumably AC sells their services through agents and through distributors because there's good economic reasons to do so.

Although quite frankly, more mundane measures would have worked just fine here. Verifying the physical CC at check-in for example. Lots of airlines do that globally. Especially for higher-risk reservations.
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