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Air Canada Attendants Urge Strict Evacuation Rules

Air Canada Attendants Urge Strict Evacuation Rules

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Old May 15, 19, 2:47 pm
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Air Canada Attendants Urge Strict Evacuation Rules

https://ca.travelpulse.com/news/airl...ion-rules.html

Lives may have been lost during the recent Aeroflot crash in Moscow, when passengers stopped to get their overhead bags before evacuating the plane. Air Canada flight attendants want to make sure that never happens in Canada.

The union representing Air Canada's flight attendants is asking Transport Canada to implement the now two-year-old Transportation Safety Board recommendation on leaving carry-on baggage behind during an emergency.
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Old May 15, 19, 3:04 pm
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Don't they already tell you to leave everything behind?
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Old May 15, 19, 3:05 pm
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Originally Posted by tcook052 View Post
https://ca.travelpulse.com/news/airl...ion-rules.html

Lives may have been lost during the recent Aeroflot crash in Moscow, when passengers stopped to get their overhead bags before evacuating the plane. Air Canada flight attendants want to make sure that never happens in Canada.

The union representing Air Canada's flight attendants is asking Transport Canada to implement the now two-year-old Transportation Safety Board recommendation on leaving carry-on baggage behind during an emergency.
Finally... Now the hard part, enforcing it whenever it's needed.
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Old May 15, 19, 3:34 pm
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Originally Posted by tcook052 View Post
https://ca.travelpulse.com/news/airl...ion-rules.html

Lives may have been lost during the recent Aeroflot crash in Moscow, when passengers stopped to get their overhead bags before evacuating the plane. Air Canada flight attendants want to make sure that never happens in Canada.

The union representing Air Canada's flight attendants is asking Transport Canada to implement the now two-year-old Transportation Safety Board recommendation on leaving carry-on baggage behind during an emergency.
I wasn't aware that we aren't required to leave our stuff behind in case of an emergency evacuation. Strange. But hey, all power to them. And when they are at it, they should ask the authorities to investigate the impact of 15.4" wide aisles on the evacuation as well.

PS: The latest news from Russia are suggesting that most of the victims seated past row 10 never got out of their seats, so they most likely couldn't be impacted by the pax in front of them taking their stuff from the bins.
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Old May 15, 19, 5:15 pm
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Originally Posted by WildcatYXU View Post
PS: The latest news from Russia are suggesting that most of the victims seated past row 10 never got out of their seats, so they most likely couldn't be impacted by the pax in front of them taking their stuff from the bins.
Yes. Well.

I suggest you read this story:
​https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/07/overweight-passenger-blocked-passengers-escaping-crashed-flight-killed-41-9423036/amp/

​.​.. which describes the experience of a passenger on that plane. He was one of the last people to get off the plane alive, he brought his bag with him ... and he was seated in row 10 (10c). There are pictures with him showing his BP.

I don't want to pre-judge the outcome of the investigation - but if a passenger had spent some time to collect his bag before he got off the plane, and no-one behind that passenger had got off alive ... well, it does not seem like a stretch to ask if the act of that passenger collecting his bag had delayed all of those behind him, resulting in their death.
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Old May 15, 19, 5:29 pm
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Having been on an AC plane that was being evacuated for smoke, I distinctly recall yelling bad words at the person in front of me who was getting a bag from the overhead and then more or less pushing him down the aisle until we were off the aircraft. Luckily, the issue was contained to the cockpit and we all got off okay.

But this kind of thing has happened before and it tends to make me think less of my fellow man.
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Old May 15, 19, 6:33 pm
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Originally Posted by canopus27 View Post
Yes. Well.

I suggest you read this story:
​https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/07/overweight-passenger-blocked-passengers-escaping-crashed-flight-killed-41-9423036/amp/

​.​.. which describes the experience of a passenger on that plane. He was one of the last people to get off the plane alive, he brought his bag with him ... and he was seated in row 10 (10c). There are pictures with him showing his BP.

I don't want to pre-judge the outcome of the investigation - but if a passenger had spent some time to collect his bag before he got off the plane, and no-one behind that passenger had got off alive ... well, it does not seem like a stretch to ask if the act of that passenger collecting his bag had delayed all of those behind him, resulting in their death.
Here you go. If you don't read Cyrillic, use google to translate: https://tass.ru/proisshestviya/6420256
You'll find this sentence in the article: "This is evidenced by the position of the bodies of many passengers who were found in the tail of the aircraft. They did not even have time to unbutton their seat belts, they died of burning with poisonous products in their seats." (Google translation, not mine, I'm just too lazy)
Just a reminder how the landing looked like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwQI...ature=youtu.be
If somebody believes that the passengers in the aisle were the reason for the victims not being able to leave the aircraft after this "landing", I have a bridge for sale.
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Old May 15, 19, 7:30 pm
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Originally Posted by WildcatYXU View Post
Here you go. If you don't read Cyrillic, use google to translate: https://tass.ru/proisshestviya/6420256
You'll find this sentence in the article: "This is evidenced by the position of the bodies of many passengers who were found in the tail of the aircraft. They did not even have time to unbutton their seat belts, they died of burning with poisonous products in their seats." (Google translation, not mine, I'm just too lazy)
Just a reminder how the landing looked like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwQI...ature=youtu.be
If somebody believes that the passengers in the aisle were the reason for the victims not being able to leave the aircraft after this "landing", I have a bridge for sale.
To me this says that the FAs have cited crappy evidence for a what would be a very good policy. That doesn't make the policy bad, it makes the evidence bad.

If there is time to grab your luggage, you can get it later. If stuff is so bad that you will be unable to get it later, then you shouldn't be delaying your own, or anybody else's evacuation, by even a quarter of a second. Simple.
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Old May 15, 19, 7:40 pm
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Originally Posted by ridefar View Post
To me this says that the FAs have cited crappy evidence for a what would be a very good policy. That doesn't make the policy bad, it makes the evidence bad.

If there is time to grab your luggage, you can get it later. If stuff is so bad that you will be unable to get it later, then you shouldn't be delaying your own, or anybody else's evacuation, by even a quarter of a second. Simple.
Agreed. I never said the policy is bad. I only said I'm surprised that this policy is not in place yet and pointed out that the evidence is a bit incorrect. But hey, no surprise here either. The " Fat ....... blocked the aisle with his carry on and killed 41 people" headline gets more attention than "The poor sods in the back died with their seat belts still on" version. So what would you expect the tabloids to print?
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Old May 16, 19, 4:54 am
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Originally Posted by WildcatYXU View Post
Here you go. If you don't read Cyrillic, use google to translate: https://tass.ru/proisshestviya/6420256
You'll find this sentence in the article: "This is evidenced by the position of the bodies of many passengers who were found in the tail of the aircraft. They did not even have time to unbutton their seat belts, they died of burning with poisonous products in their seats." (Google translation, not mine, I'm just too lazy)
Just a reminder how the landing looked like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwQI...ature=youtu.be
Tragically, I do believe that .... some of the onboard videos (caution: this video is disturbing)

show that there is smoke visible inside the plane, even before it has stopped moving.

However, all that does is underline how critically important it is for the evacuation to proceed as fast as humanly possible. Literally, every second will save (or cost) lives.

But I find impossible to believe that the dividing line between survivors and victims was so black and white, that row 11 didn't even have time to unbuckle their seatbelts -- while row 10 had so much spare time that he was able to gather his bag without delaying anyone else.

I don't buy it.

I think we agree that those at the very back of the plane (row 20, I think) likely had no chance. Horribly, that likely also applies to the last several rows. But if row 10 was literally inches away from the instant death that you imply impacted row 11, then I don't believe that he would have time to collect his bag. At some point, your own survival instinct will force you to drop everything and run.

You only stop to collect your bag when you believe you have time to do so without risking your survival - so he had some spare time. Maybe only seconds, but some. I believe that his choice to use those seconds to collect his bag, likely cost some the people in row 11 (and possibly others), their lives.
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Old May 16, 19, 6:23 am
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Originally Posted by canopus27 View Post
I think we agree that those at the very back of the plane (row 20, I think) likely had no chance. Horribly, that likely also applies to the last several rows. But if row 10 was literally inches away from the instant death that you imply impacted row 11, then I don't believe that he would have time to collect his bag. At some point, your own survival instinct will force you to drop everything and run.

You only stop to collect your bag when you believe you have time to do so without risking your survival - so he had some spare time. Maybe only seconds, but some. I believe that his choice to use those seconds to collect his bag, likely cost some the people in row 11 (and possibly others), their lives.
There is no way the crash was unsurvivable in row X and the people in row X+1 had time to pull carry-on out of the overhead and exit the plane. We won't know until the preliminary / final report but I would bet a large sum of money that people pulling their carry-on out killed people. One video I saw seemed to show the video taker even using their sweet time getting out of their seat. I would have literally been running people over to get off that plane, even if I was in row 2.
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Old May 16, 19, 6:40 am
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Originally Posted by canopus27 View Post
Tragically, I do believe that .... some of the onboard videos (caution: this video is disturbing) https://twitter.com/Ozkok_A/status/1125122006674964480
show that there is smoke visible inside the plane, even before it has stopped moving.

However, all that does is underline how critically important it is for the evacuation to proceed as fast as humanly possible. Literally, every second will save (or cost) lives.

But I find impossible to believe that the dividing line between survivors and victims was so black and white, that row 11 didn't even have time to unbuckle their seatbelts -- while row 10 had so much spare time that he was able to gather his bag without delaying anyone else.

I don't buy it.

I think we agree that those at the very back of the plane (row 20, I think) likely had no chance. Horribly, that likely also applies to the last several rows. But if row 10 was literally inches away from the instant death that you imply impacted row 11, then I don't believe that he would have time to collect his bag. At some point, your own survival instinct will force you to drop everything and run.

You only stop to collect your bag when you believe you have time to do so without risking your survival - so he had some spare time. Maybe only seconds, but some. I believe that his choice to use those seconds to collect his bag, likely cost some the people in row 11 (and possibly others), their lives.
I'll add another view from outside: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98JT...ature=youtu.be
You can see that everything behind the wing is engulfed in flames long before the aircraft came to stop. So the back of the cabin was already in pretty bad shape. There was one survivor in the back. He was seated in row 18. He's the passenger who complained about the guy taking his carry on from the overhead bin. Oddly enough, his own actions are questionable too. He didn't wait until the aircraft came to stop. He jumped out from his seat when they were still moving and managed to get forward. This saved his life. But what would happen if the aircraft still would have brakes? Where would he land? On the back of the last J seat and everybody in Y would die because of his unconscious body blocking the aisle? All that doesn't matter though. I find it literally painful that people can be so dumb and retrieve their stuff in emergency. And I find it unbelievable that we need a law to order people to leave their stuff behind and save themselves and their fellow passengers. People really aren't thinking?

Last edited by WildcatYXU; May 16, 19 at 7:55 am
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Old May 16, 19, 7:51 am
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They'd do much better overall if they didn't sell emergency seats to the obviously infirm or POS (or permit anyone of the sort to sit there at all) who can't fit through the window in the first place. I'd let the investigation shake out before becoming a mob based on scurrilous conjecture.
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Old May 16, 19, 8:31 am
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The only way this can be enforced is with centrally lockable overhead bins (of which passengers would have to be repeatedly made aware so they do not spend even more time trying to force them open).
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Old May 16, 19, 8:39 am
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Originally Posted by Mauricio23 View Post
The only way this can be enforced is with centrally lockable overhead bins (of which passengers would have to be repeatedly made aware so they do not spend even more time trying to force them open).
I second this. I feel like you either need "the bins will lock and will not open" to become part of the standard safety procedure instructions, or you need clear, concise instructions from the crew before an emergency landing (which there isn't always time for).

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