YEG USER

I get what you're saying. When I first read your previous post, I was going to respond similarly to @canadiancow. I suspect the entire basis of the lawsuit has to do with the requirement of displaying "all inclusive" pricing which IIRC exists in Quebec; charging separate fees on top of mileage requirements could run afoul of regulations, but could also be allowable depending on how it was done. I guess we'll find out soon enough once the courts decide.

i wonder if the flight pass example could possibly be used against AC. Even tough once you book a ticket using your credit, the amount of AIF, surcharges, etc. get broken out of the credit cost, at the time of sale it is shown as part of the all-inclusive credit price, so there are examples of non-mileage fares where AC doesn't break out those fares separately at the time of sale. I'm not sure how AIF's, etc. work for unlimited flight passes.

On an unrelated note, this is meant as a piece of friendly advice. I think most frequent posters here have posted incorrect information at some time - I know I'm certainly guilty of it - but if you want to be given the benefit of the doubt and be taken more seriously, I suggest you cut out the nicknames such as Errorplan, rogue, etc. These, and several others, are tired and had pretty much stopped being used years ago, but that's just MHO. The quotes below are just from this thread.

RangerNS

Why do you think that Air Canada isn't paying the airports their fees, @j2simpso?

They happen to do that as part of the all-in fee. Aircanada.com for non-FP flights quotes the full fee, too. If you drill into the price, you get the fare/fees/taxes breakdown.

For FP, they just don't show you the breakdown. AC assumes the risk you fly into super expensive airports and they have less of profit on some given PAX.

tcook052

Advertising inclusive pricing is law of the land across the country.

https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/all-in...ce-advertising

MasterGeek

FlyerTalker70

Again, I agree that someone is paying ultimately paying those airport fees the only question is who ends up ultimately paying those fees. In the case of érrorPlan and booking a normal AC flight, it is the customer who foots the bill. However, for products like flight passes, it is AC that foots the bill. The argument then goes, if AC is capable of providing customers with a flat fee to travel between destinations why can't they do so for érrorPlan customers redeeming fixed reward travel.

And that's part of the problem. If I go to Aeroplan site and book a flight I'll be shown a price that says something like 15,000 miles + tax. For instance, here's what Aeroplan says when I look for flights between YYZ and YUL:




How is that different from the bad old days when you'd see a flight that says $300 CAD but when you click through to book the price ends up being $700 with taxes and fees? In addition, Aeroplan quite proudly advertises their fixed points award booking chart:


Nowhere on the site does Aeroplan mention that the prices listed aren't the total cost and may be subject to additional taxes and fees.

An interesting question will be how AC ends up receding this situation. Perhaps they just jack up the number of miles required to redeem an award and dump all those taxes and fees. AC is quite capable of determining an approximate amount of miles to get eliminate taxes and fees, they already offer this option to members as an option (i.e. using points to cover both fare & taxes and fees):


One thing I should also point out is that for some routes (even those operated by AC), AC has made the determination that they'll be the ones who pay for the bulk of the taxes & fees. Consider the following AC flight between LAX and YYZ:


Now compare that to purchasing the same ticket online direct with AC:




As you can see AC is charging $7.50 in taxes and fees with the reward ticket and nearly $40 for the same ticket when flying revenue. Even when you remove the transportation tax which arguably you may not have to pay since your base fare was technically 0, you still end up paying $6.05 above what you'd pay with the reward ticket. I'm guessing the passenger facility charge is something AC would remit to another entity (i.e. the airport authority in question?). The point being is AC is quite comfortable covering some of the taxes and fees burden if you find the right route. Otherwise, they'll end up dumping scam charges (i.e. fuel surcharge a North American way of saying base fare) and fees they have to collect for other parties.

Safe Travels,

James

MasterGeek

FlyerTalker70

Perhaps you are right here. The point I'm getting at though is how AC calculates these fees is completely arbitrary. In some cases they'll charge the passengers no taxes & fees (i.e. flight passes) whereas for others they'll happily collect a stack of cash even for the same flight. To illustrate this further, suppose I want to fly from YYZ to LAX. I see the following flight is offered as a fixed mile reward:



Wow are those taxes and fees eye watering. Let's take a look inside to see how AC calculates the taxes & fees on this one:



Now if I click the Market fare flight rewards tab I see the same flight is on offer, this time for slightly fewer miles. Clicking through I get the following quote:


Interestingly the taxes & fees here are nearly half that compared to if I were to book the same flight with a fixed miles award (in spite of it actually costing fewer miles). Jumping in to the breakdown I see:



No carrier surcharge nor US international transportation tax!

Now answer me this : why does the exact same flight on Aeroplan collect vastly different taxes & fees depending on if the ticket was fixed award and market fare? If you say because the ticket type is different you are completely missing the point here!

Safe Travels,

James

MasterGeek

YEG USER

Incorrect. For flight passes they do charge taxes and fees - those charges are just built into the price of the ticket.

For example, if you want to buy a flight pass you need to specify your province of residence. Alberta charges GST, other provinces have HST. Provinces with HST have higher prices because the HST for that province is built into the price of the pass. Similarly, a portion of flight passes will be allocated to AIF's, etc. While those charges vary by origin/destination, AC has built an allowance for this into the price of the pass - they aren't simply swallowing the cost out of the goodness of their hearts. Pax are charged for taxes/fees - they just aren't broken out separately.

It is (partly) because of different ticket type, and no, I'm not missing the point (below is regarding the carrier surcharge, I can't speak to the US international transportation tax).

Within North America, AC does have a fuel surcharge, it's just that as of about 10 years ago they build it into the base fare on revenue tickets, so you don't see it as a separate charge. Market Fare tickets take a revenue ticket, apply a certain CPM cost to the base fare, and then charge cash for the balance of the taxes/surcharges/fees. Since a Market Fare flight bases the mileage cost on base fare, the Carrier Surcharge is being paid for by points within NA. On a fixed point reward, the surcharge that is built into the base fare on a revenue ticket is broken out and applied separately.

Look at an international ticket, the carrier surcharge on AC for a flight should be the same between revenue and market fare. Unfortunately I can't do a comparison for a fixed point reward - as an SE the carrier surcharge is waived so it doesn't show up for me.

FlyerTalker70

Again, I think we're quibbling over semantics here. I agree that AC is no mother Teresa, they are building the expected cost of such fees into the final flight pass price they charge consumers. The point I'm trying to make here is that AC is capable of providing consumers with a flat fee (be it cash or points) to travel to different destinations. However, they choose to hide behind this opaque systems where costs are not known until you choose a specific flight and even then the taxes and fees can vary for the exact same flight depending on which type of award you choose!



As a counterpoint, I took the same flight and plugged it into UA's website to see what the ticket would end up costing:



As you can see UA charges the same amount as the lower market fare rate in spite of the fact that the ticket is a saver award and should in theory come out of the same bucket as those fixed milage awards on AC.

Your claim that carrier surcharge should be the same for fixed and market fares is also not true for international travel. Here's a flight I put together on Aeroplan going to Shanghai, China:

With a market fare I get the following result:


Breaking down the taxes & fees portion I see:



Meanwhile if I take try to book the same ticket, this time using fixed miles I get the following result:


With the following taxes & fees breakdown:



As you can see, even here with an entirely international long haul flight, there is still a carrier surcharge difference of $30 between market fare and fixed flight awards. While I couldn't find this difference for every international city pair I found, saying that such discrepancies do not occur between the two regimes for international travel is patently wrong.

Safe Travels,

James

tessy143

mapleg

GUWonder

I have to wonder what other program can be taken to task in Quebec for the YQ award travel charges. I have to assume that going after AC/Aeroplan was where the bigger money was involved. I wish it were the legislative/regulatory action that stopped these scam charges on travel, since that would provide a more comprehensive solution than having to hope for a winning fight of this kind of stuff in court.

aeroman380

I hope this extends to international scamcharges. I will say tuned

pinniped

The rest of the world is rooting for you, Quebec. These scam charges need to go. I know Quebec law won't directly help me personally, but maybe you'll inspire other action around the world.

If you win here, do us a solid and go after "resort fees" next, okay? @:-)