AC now ranked "one of the worst performers" for OTP
Apr 30, 2019, 5:08 pm
#61
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: sqrt(-united states of apologist)
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Posts: 5,403
I did 400+ AC flights in 2017. 1/3 of them involved a connection onto another AC flight, and the majority of them were "late" by the "15 minute" definition. I missed only two connecting flights. There were some tight ones, but I managed to get to them fending for myself, with only one requiring concierge assistance to whisk me from gate to gate while on their walkie talkies.
So yeah, AC's OTP sucks and has sucked for as long as I can remember, but I have yet to be impacted in any significant way.
So yeah, AC's OTP sucks and has sucked for as long as I can remember, but I have yet to be impacted in any significant way.
Apr 30, 2019, 5:17 pm
#62
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Ideally YOW, but probably not
Programs: AC SE*MM
Posts: 1,820
I'd much rather have a metric along the lines of "delay at final destination". If the 20 minute delay makes me misconnect and arrive 24 hours late, that's a 24 hour delay, not a 20 minute delay. If the 2 hour delay cuts my connection down from 4 hours to 2 hours, and I arrive at my destination on time, that's not a delay.
I'm not saying AC would do any better here compared to the competition, but I'd at least feel like we're discussing something useful.
I'm not saying AC would do any better here compared to the competition, but I'd at least feel like we're discussing something useful.
In essence, the crappy OTP costs me time, even when they are on time.
Apr 30, 2019, 5:28 pm
#63
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: YVR
Programs: AC SE 2MM; UA MP Premier Silver; Marriott Bonvoy LT Titanium Elite; Radisson; Avis PC
Posts: 35,254
So egu.
I know that SD. He also announces, upon arriving at YVR; "Welcome to Vancouver, home of the [insert the current or next regular season year] Stanley Cup champions."
Apr 30, 2019, 5:35 pm
#64
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Halifax
Programs: AC SE100K, Marriott Lifetime Platinum Elite. NEXUS
Posts: 4,549
I never hear the crew mention on-time arrival on landing. Although once doing YOW-YYZ, upon landing, the crew said "Welcome to Toronto, home of the 1967 Stanley Cup champions". I literally laughed out loud ;-)
Back on topic the issue here for me, as someone based in YOW, is risk. I very frequently fly YOW - YYZ - X, and frequently the YYZ-X leg is once per day. How much of a layover do I leave in YYZ? Air Canada's crappy OTP means that I won't risk a one-hour layover, sometimes in winter even a two-hour layover. So I am flying YOW-YYZ-DEL in January and if the flight by some miracle is on time I spend 2+ hours in YYZ Intl. I'm essentially burning up my time to compensate for the statistical likelihood that I am going to be late YOW-YYZ and I don't want to be sprinting down to the end of the hammerhead in YYZ hoping I make my connection and knowing that if I miss it I just screwed myself on timing for business meetings.
In essence, the crappy OTP costs me time, even when they are on time.
Back on topic the issue here for me, as someone based in YOW, is risk. I very frequently fly YOW - YYZ - X, and frequently the YYZ-X leg is once per day. How much of a layover do I leave in YYZ? Air Canada's crappy OTP means that I won't risk a one-hour layover, sometimes in winter even a two-hour layover. So I am flying YOW-YYZ-DEL in January and if the flight by some miracle is on time I spend 2+ hours in YYZ Intl. I'm essentially burning up my time to compensate for the statistical likelihood that I am going to be late YOW-YYZ and I don't want to be sprinting down to the end of the hammerhead in YYZ hoping I make my connection and knowing that if I miss it I just screwed myself on timing for business meetings.
In essence, the crappy OTP costs me time, even when they are on time.
YOWYYZ[1] has you leaving home 2 hours "more". YOWYYZ[2] later, but with a risk of misconnecting. Fair reality.
What is WS option for YOW-??-DEL? UA? AA? AI? 9W? Something between Home->Client being more than 2 hours "more" and "never", right?
Would you feel better if AC simply had fewer flights between Ottawa an Toronto, and simply did not have the option of either running in Pearson or sitting in the lounge? That is the next best option, not "on time".
Home->Destination, Destination->Home is my metric.
For me, native AC is almost always better, factoring in even +2 hour delays. Its better because Home->Destination is faster, Destination->Home is faster, and there isn't anything else big that serves YHZ and also the NA hinterland.
Apr 30, 2019, 5:36 pm
#65
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: sqrt(-united states of apologist)
Programs: *$ Green
Posts: 5,403
I never hear the crew mention on-time arrival on landing. Although once doing YOW-YYZ, upon landing, the crew said "Welcome to Toronto, home of the 1967 Stanley Cup champions". I literally laughed out loud ;-)
Back on topic the issue here for me, as someone based in YOW, is risk. I very frequently fly YOW - YYZ - X, and frequently the YYZ-X leg is once per day. How much of a layover do I leave in YYZ? Air Canada's crappy OTP means that I won't risk a one-hour layover, sometimes in winter even a two-hour layover. So I am flying YOW-YYZ-DEL in January and if the flight by some miracle is on time I spend 2+ hours in YYZ Intl. I'm essentially burning up my time to compensate for the statistical likelihood that I am going to be late YOW-YYZ and I don't want to be sprinting down to the end of the hammerhead in YYZ hoping I make my connection and knowing that if I miss it I just screwed myself on timing for business meetings.
In essence, the crappy OTP costs me time, even when they are on time.
Back on topic the issue here for me, as someone based in YOW, is risk. I very frequently fly YOW - YYZ - X, and frequently the YYZ-X leg is once per day. How much of a layover do I leave in YYZ? Air Canada's crappy OTP means that I won't risk a one-hour layover, sometimes in winter even a two-hour layover. So I am flying YOW-YYZ-DEL in January and if the flight by some miracle is on time I spend 2+ hours in YYZ Intl. I'm essentially burning up my time to compensate for the statistical likelihood that I am going to be late YOW-YYZ and I don't want to be sprinting down to the end of the hammerhead in YYZ hoping I make my connection and knowing that if I miss it I just screwed myself on timing for business meetings.
In essence, the crappy OTP costs me time, even when they are on time.
It's the only safe way regardless of the airline or OTP to guarantee the connection.
Either that, or I already know in advance 2-3 alternate routings (no joke, I literally write down on a piece of paper the flight number combinations in preferred order).
Funny side note, I found NH (who has one of the best OTP) the worst at handling IROP re-bookings...
Apr 30, 2019, 7:25 pm
#66
Original Poster
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: YYG
Programs: airlines and hotels and rental cars - oh my!
Posts: 2,992
Back on topic the issue here for me, as someone based in YOW, is risk. I very frequently fly YOW - YYZ - X, and frequently the YYZ-X leg is once per day. How much of a layover do I leave in YYZ? Air Canada's crappy OTP means that I won't risk a one-hour layover, sometimes in winter even a two-hour layover. So I am flying YOW-YYZ-DEL in January and if the flight by some miracle is on time I spend 2+ hours in YYZ Intl. I'm essentially burning up my time to compensate for the statistical likelihood that I am going to be late YOW-YYZ and I don't want to be sprinting down to the end of the hammerhead in YYZ hoping I make my connection and knowing that if I miss it I just screwed myself on timing for business meetings.
In essence, the crappy OTP costs me time, even when they are on time.
In essence, the crappy OTP costs me time, even when they are on time.
Apr 30, 2019, 10:49 pm
#67
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Vancouver
Programs: AC SE100K 1MM, FB Platinum, Bonvoy Platinum Elite, IHG Gold Elite, Hilton Gold
Posts: 1,601
The block times are ridiculous. They have no hope of turning even an express flight in the 30 minutes they allow. Throw in some bad weather (such as today’s snow in both YEG and YYC) and there’s no hope to keeping things on time.
it really isn’t fair to those of us who are loyal (and to everyone else for that matter) to have to add in extra time to ensure one doesn’t misconnect.
it really isn’t fair to those of us who are loyal (and to everyone else for that matter) to have to add in extra time to ensure one doesn’t misconnect.
May 1, 2019, 1:11 am
#68
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Ideally YOW, but probably not
Programs: AC SE*MM
Posts: 1,820
On then, what is the alternative?
YOWYYZ[1] has you leaving home 2 hours "more". YOWYYZ[2] later, but with a risk of misconnecting. Fair reality.
What is WS option for YOW-??-DEL? UA? AA? AI? 9W? Something between Home->Client being more than 2 hours "more" and "never", right?
Would you feel better if AC simply had fewer flights between Ottawa an Toronto, and simply did not have the option of either running in Pearson or sitting in the lounge? That is the next best option, not "on time".
Home->Destination, Destination->Home is my metric.
For me, native AC is almost always better, factoring in even +2 hour delays. Its better because Home->Destination is faster, Destination->Home is faster, and there isn't anything else big that serves YHZ and also the NA hinterland.
YOWYYZ[1] has you leaving home 2 hours "more". YOWYYZ[2] later, but with a risk of misconnecting. Fair reality.
What is WS option for YOW-??-DEL? UA? AA? AI? 9W? Something between Home->Client being more than 2 hours "more" and "never", right?
Would you feel better if AC simply had fewer flights between Ottawa an Toronto, and simply did not have the option of either running in Pearson or sitting in the lounge? That is the next best option, not "on time".
Home->Destination, Destination->Home is my metric.
For me, native AC is almost always better, factoring in even +2 hour delays. Its better because Home->Destination is faster, Destination->Home is faster, and there isn't anything else big that serves YHZ and also the NA hinterland.
And a big reason I like AC is the frequency of YOW - YYZ connections. For me the peace of mind knowing that if my flight is delayed or cancelled or whatever that I can get on another flight an hour later, especially coming home, is worth a lot; in 15 years of business travel I've had to overnight in YYZ because of missed connections exactly once (knock on wood...). I've had to do it with UA in ORD and EWR multiple times.
But that doesn't mean I am happy with the OTP. I am spending more time in YYZ instead of at home on outbound flights because I am worried about OTP on my connection - I'd like some of those hours back. It also adds another layer of stress; mathematically every second trip I'm likely to hit a significant delay on the outbound, even though to be honest it feels like the YOW-YYZ OTP is probably a lot better than the fleet wide average.
May 2, 2019, 2:20 am
#69
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 6,222
I think we've already established that any weather effects are substantially immaterial.
Then you're doing it wrong.
Proactively cancelling flights at a hub soon to be affected by weather gives people opportunites to rebook via other hubs in advance, and/or cancel their flight since there is always a generous waiver associated with weather events. If I am going YYZ-EWR-XXX, and EWR is affected, I am happy to have the opportunity to rebook ahead of time to YYZ-ORD-XXX, instead of waiting until the snow hits. Waiting until the weather hits and getting caught with your pants down (like AC does), means more people get stuck.
Your personal experiences are irrelevant, the numbers speak for themselves. By your logic, both my AC flights were on time in 2019, therefore AC has an 100% OTP!
The weather excuse was debunked in the other thread. AA/UA/DL are exposed to worse weather than AC. Hubs at EWR, IAD, ORD, DTW, MSP, LGA, JFK all have horrible weather, and the impact of any bad weather has a far more reaching ripple effect on those carriers than a YYZ storm has on AC.
Now, the regular AC faithful have come up with "oh but others cancel way more!" - which again, numbers show otherwise. AC cancels a higher percentage of their flights, even though they operate 3x less flights than the big boys.
I am amazed that people are so keen to make more excuses for AC than AC does themselves!
Your personal experiences are irrelevant, the numbers speak for themselves. By your logic, both my AC flights were on time in 2019, therefore AC has an 100% OTP!
The weather excuse was debunked in the other thread. AA/UA/DL are exposed to worse weather than AC. Hubs at EWR, IAD, ORD, DTW, MSP, LGA, JFK all have horrible weather, and the impact of any bad weather has a far more reaching ripple effect on those carriers than a YYZ storm has on AC.
Now, the regular AC faithful have come up with "oh but others cancel way more!" - which again, numbers show otherwise. AC cancels a higher percentage of their flights, even though they operate 3x less flights than the big boys.
I am amazed that people are so keen to make more excuses for AC than AC does themselves!
you do realize AC cancels more flights then the US airlines. Rankourabu posted the stats above.
So are you saying AC is cancelling the wrong flights? Because clearly Delta and AA and United have cancelled LESS flights and yet have way better OTP.
So is that part of the problem that makes AC have the worst on time performance they are cancelling the wrong flights and trying to fly in a storm?
So are you saying AC is cancelling the wrong flights? Because clearly Delta and AA and United have cancelled LESS flights and yet have way better OTP.
So is that part of the problem that makes AC have the worst on time performance they are cancelling the wrong flights and trying to fly in a storm?
Air Canada cancels their on-time flights. That's why their OTP is so bad.
Besides... how would they even know when Winter is Coming? A raven carring a message saying Winter is Here?
Last edited by tcook052; May 2, 2019 at 10:20 am Reason: merge separate posts
May 3, 2019, 11:18 am
#70
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Location: ord
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Posts: 365
When I was chatting with an A 320 pilots he said its simple the planes are so old and poorly maintained they are always delayed, and nobody cares so the long list of deferred maintenance is just deferred again.
May 3, 2019, 11:24 am
#71
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delete
Last edited by skybluesea; Dec 28, 2020 at 6:35 pm
May 3, 2019, 11:28 am
#72
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: YVR - MILLS Waypoint (It's the third house on the left)
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RMKS/DELAYED DUE TO LATE INBOUND ACCT RAMP CONSTRAINTS IN YVR DLYD DUE LATE X-SYD DUE AC33/02 FROM YVR RAMP LOADING SYD 1038 00:28L YVR 0840 01:10L 77L ACT AD AA
May 3, 2019, 11:29 am
#73
Join Date: May 2015
Location: EXT, sometimes NYC/LON/YQT
Programs: Aeroplan, SPG/Marriott, Radisson Rewards
Posts: 774
Code:
RMKS/DELAYED DUE TO LATE INBOUND ACCT RAMP CONSTRAINTS IN YVRDL YD DUE LATE X-SYD DUE AC33/02 FROM YVR RAMP LOADING
May 3, 2019, 12:05 pm
#74
Join Date: May 2003
Programs: UA Silver
Posts: 1,931
In terms of getting people to their final destination roughly on time, missed connections due to delays are compounded by the oversized importance of YYZ, often limiting the number of realistic alternate options through other hubs.
May 3, 2019, 1:10 pm
#75
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Location: YYG
Programs: airlines and hotels and rental cars - oh my!
Posts: 2,992
AC seems to be doing pretty well today, in all fairness. Killing time while waiting for my 3:00 to show up, so peeked on Flight Tracker and had a look at AC flights in and out of YYZ. 46 flights currently airborne, 29 on time, 17 late, 63% OTP. A better day than most.
On Time
AC28
AC859
AC877
AC1623
AC792
AC1187
AC785
AC7665
AC7723
AC7325
AC109
AC1694
AC62
AC1574
AC191
AC1115
AC16
AC1901
AC849
AC85
AC1122
AC2
AC1039
AC1038
AC106
AC1641
AC615
AC794
AC1512
Late
AC32
AC1911
AC1715
AC1810
AC1851
AC7746
AC594
AC9
AC34
AC1575
AC617
AC891
AC895
AC1674
AC1817
AC265
AC1915
Have not looked at any other airlines or airports for comparison, so it's an extremely limited data point.
On Time
AC28
AC859
AC877
AC1623
AC792
AC1187
AC785
AC7665
AC7723
AC7325
AC109
AC1694
AC62
AC1574
AC191
AC1115
AC16
AC1901
AC849
AC85
AC1122
AC2
AC1039
AC1038
AC106
AC1641
AC615
AC794
AC1512
Late
AC32
AC1911
AC1715
AC1810
AC1851
AC7746
AC594
AC9
AC34
AC1575
AC617
AC891
AC895
AC1674
AC1817
AC265
AC1915
Have not looked at any other airlines or airports for comparison, so it's an extremely limited data point.
