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AC now ranked "one of the worst performers" for OTP

AC now ranked "one of the worst performers" for OTP

Old Sep 8, 21, 8:48 pm
  #271  
 
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What's up with today's delays on YYZ-YOW "due to additional time needed for health and safety initiatives"? Does this mean they're waiting for people on connecting flights stuck in customs or is it just a catch-all excuse?

AC442, AC446, AC464, AC468 all delayed for this reason.

Last edited by YZF_Flyer; Sep 8, 21 at 9:08 pm Reason: Typo
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Old Sep 8, 21, 8:50 pm
  #272  
 
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Sounds like understaffing grooming crews, and thus unavailable A/C, not caring about pax connecting on a high frequency, high capacity, hop.
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Old Sep 8, 21, 9:19 pm
  #273  
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Originally Posted by YZF_Flyer View Post
What's up with today's delays on YYZ-YOW "due to additional time needed for health and safety initiatives"? Does this mean they're waiting for people on connecting flights stuck in customs or is it just a catch-all excuse?
The reasons in the app are not reliable. Sometimes it's correct, but I've had flights where I know the reason is one thing but the app says something different.
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Old Sep 8, 21, 9:33 pm
  #274  
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Originally Posted by YZF_Flyer View Post
What's up with today's delays on YYZ-YOW "due to additional time needed for health and safety initiatives"? Does this mean they're waiting for people on connecting flights stuck in customs or is it just a catch-all excuse?

AC442, AC446, AC464, AC468 all delayed for this reason.
EF shows the same wording for ALL FOUR of the flights you listed:

DELAY IMMIGRATION, CUSTOMS, HEALTH

Whether it's this word sequence or your term, the "catch-all excuse" that appears in the app or on the website, I'll assume it's because AC doesn't have a comedy writer on staff - or someone with a post-grad degree in creative writing. I know that on some of my delays, the AC email arrives while I'm seated onboard, with some vague sentence but then the captain makes an announcement telling us what he knows and they do not match. (I'll leave it to the experts here to decide who is right. )

But I did see this one 2 days ago for AC 364 YLW-YUL

YLW
ESTIMATED TIME OF DEPARTURE 1100

DELAY FLIGHT DECK CREW SHORTAGE
LEFT THE GATE 1107
TOOK OFF 1126
PLANE IS LATE (IN HOURS MINUTES) 0100
FLIGHT DECK CREW SHORTAGE
PLANE IS LATE (IN HOURS MINUTES) 0007
AIRCRAFT DOCUMENTATION LATE/INACCURATE
.
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Old Sep 13, 21, 3:09 am
  #275  
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Lol


Almost #1!

Data for August is out according to OAG.

It must be the winter weather.
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Old Sep 13, 21, 6:57 am
  #276  
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48.9% OTP.

If nothing else, you must admire their consistency.
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Old Sep 13, 21, 7:42 am
  #277  
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Originally Posted by Symmetre View Post
48.9% OTP.
If nothing else, you must admire their consistency.
Yes but the average 31 cancelled flights/day is new 😎
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Old Sep 13, 21, 10:16 am
  #278  
 
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I again offer my wondering if OTP is a useful metric. If a combination of scheduled time, frequency and recovery makes the over all "house to hotel" idea of travel time I care about as being good. If AC is "always" and hour late and an hour late is 4 hours before the next option, I'd rather them be an hour late than on time and useles.

But I don't have any metrics to analyze that question.
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Old Sep 13, 21, 11:19 am
  #279  
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Originally Posted by RangerNS View Post
I again offer my wondering if OTP is a useful metric.
OTP is an incredibly important thing if you rely on the airline to stick to its schedule in order for you to make a connection. As opposed to blowing it, and sticking you in another airport hotel overnight.

It's also important if you value your time. I bill clients by the hour - I only wish I could bill Air Canada for the hours I've been stuck in airports waiting for them, instead of doing something more productive or rewarding, only because they can't get their act together and follow a basic schedule.

I get it that things happen. But when they happen more often than not (as is the case with a 48.9% OTP) then there are bigger problems than winter weather or Pearson runway work, and indicate shoddy operational management.
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Old Sep 13, 21, 11:40 am
  #280  
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Originally Posted by Symmetre View Post
OTP is an incredibly important thing if you rely on the airline to stick to its schedule in order for you to make a connection.
I also value my time and don't like getting stuck in airports or airport hotels.

But to @RangerNS's point, how useful is OTP as a statistic for determining how often that's an issue?

If every flight were exactly 16 minutes late, OTP would be 0%, but you would likely almost never miss your connections.

There's likely a correlation between OTP15 and extreme delays that blow up itineraries, but I don't know how strong it is. It would also be interesting to see how airport layouts, flight banking, and MCTs play in to making connections. For instance, DL has way better OTP than AC, but they also sell some tickets with really low MCTs through hubs - if my MDW-MSP is 14 minutes late (i.e. still "on time") at gate G5, how likely am I to make my 31-minute connection to MSP-YYC way across the airport at C23?

This is not to excuse AC's terrible OTP (I've criticized them on many occasions for under-blocking flights), I just think @RangerNS poses an interesting question.
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Old Sep 13, 21, 12:41 pm
  #281  
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Originally Posted by RangerNS View Post
I again offer my wondering if OTP is a useful metric.
Bolding mine, Adam, because I think that's really the crux of it. One can debate causes, correlations and variances all day long ... and I admit, there is some fun in doing that. But let's please acknowledge that we're just splitting hairs.

I think it's a pretty sure bet that an airline which can't even get half its flights to destination on time is going to cause me more grief, more frequently, than one which generally keeps to its schedules. I've never once been inconvenienced by a plane showing up when it's supposed to.

Just my own experience, with no data to back it up, but there you go.
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Old Sep 13, 21, 1:03 pm
  #282  
 
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Backwards first:
Originally Posted by Symmetre View Post
I've never once been inconvenienced by a plane showing up when it's supposed to.
Nor has anyone. Or at least not anyone with realistic expectations. But that isn't my question.

Originally Posted by Symmetre View Post
One can debate causes, correlations and variances all day long ... and I admit, there is some fun in doing that.
And we have. But again, that is the input analysis to OTP, not the usefulness of OTP to me, as a flyer. Considering my most recent (in the before times) regular flying, Halifax to Chicago, I'd rather AC always being an hour late, then having to get up at 3 AM for a UA direct flight. (I have no idea the OTP rating of that flight, it doesn't matter at all to me. 6 AM Sunday is right out as an option). I'd rather, in this case, RON on YUL or YYZ 1/10 weeks and get to the office at 11AM on Monday then not have a Sunday morning at home. OTP was entirely irrelevant, even if I missed a connection; AC will put me up and get me out in the morning. UA would take my entire Sunday at home.
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Old Sep 13, 21, 1:25 pm
  #283  
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If the OTP was 98%, would people be questioning OTP as a "useful" metric? Doubt it. It would be wow AC best OTP in North America on every napkin.

Even if the metric is not "useful", it indicates AC is more often late than not. In the summer time no less.
And I m sure its useful to those hundreds of people on the 30+ flights (avg) that are cancelled every day.
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Old Sep 13, 21, 1:33 pm
  #284  
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Originally Posted by Symmetre View Post
I think it's a pretty sure bet that an airline which can't even get half its flights to destination on time is going to cause me more grief, more frequently, than one which generally keeps to its schedules. I've never once been inconvenienced by a plane showing up when it's supposed to.
(Quoting this out of order because I think it makes more sense) I don't disagree with you on that...

Bolding mine, Adam, because I think that's really the crux of it. One can debate causes, correlations and variances all day long ... and I admit, there is some fun in doing that. But let's please acknowledge that we're just splitting hairs.
But I don't think it's splitting hairs. An airline with 90% OTP is almost certainly going to cause you fewer problems than one with 50% OTP. But what about if the OTP gap is only 5 percentage points? What's the distribution of the delays on the two carriers? When I read @RangerNS's post, I thought about how I've been through YYC and YVR a lot lately and seen a very large number of extreme delays on WS on the departure screens. Probably fewer flights delayed overall than the AC flights on the boards, but a whole bunch of really long delays that probably wrecked someone's day. I even overheard someone in a YYC MLL line who bought a YYC-YVR-YQQ ticket on AC because the WS YYC-YQQ flight was delayed 9 hours or 12 hours or something.

Again, AC's OTP sucks. It's a simple metric that provides a certain amount of information. But because it's a simple metric, it may not be the be-all and end-all.

One other way in which OTP is not reflective of what matters to the passengers is the recent cluster that has been YYZ international arrivals. AC may claim its flight arrived on time because they set the brakes within 15 minutes of scheduled arrival, but if passengers got held on the aircraft for another hour or two, that will likely have caused a bunch of problems for them, even though the flight was "on time".
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Old Sep 13, 21, 3:38 pm
  #285  
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Originally Posted by Adam Smith View Post
But I don't think it's splitting hairs.
Perhaps, but we may need to agree to disagree on that. I mean no disrespect to anyone here, but considerations like delays in the customs hall, or the comparable OTP of flights that one had no intention of taking anyway because they leave at 6:00 am on a Sunday morning, really are peripheral to the primary discussion here, which is - why do less than half of AC's flights arrive on time?

Per the August numbers that rankourabu posted upthread, AC's OTP once again lags way behind that of its competitors. This time around, they rank 21st of 23 airlines listed with a grim 48.9% OTP. The next carrier ahead of them - a discount operation at that - has an OTP of 61.6%. That's not a minor gap. I could entertain discussion of "what if it was only a 5% gap" if that were the case. But it's not. AC is consistently at the back of the pack when it comes to getting their customers to destination on time, and the situation never seems to improve.

Over the years there have been excuses about cold Canadian weather and runway construction at Pearson, there have been speculations about how they calculate block times and how OTP should be determined ... it's admittedly enjoyable discussion, but little more than hair-splitting since none of it really explains why The Gosh Darn Bestest Airline In The Whole Wide World According to Skytrax can't meet a schedule of its own manufacture. Other airlines manage to do this more often than not, including those operating fleets in and out of hubs that suffer winter weather on par or worse than what we see at AC's hubs.

Which is why I think we may need to agree to disagree here. To my mind, when AC publishes a schedule they set an expectation. Over time, failing to meet that expectation - which a sub-50% OTP indicates happens more often than not - says there are real problems which are not being addressed.
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