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AC now ranked "one of the worst performers" for OTP

AC now ranked "one of the worst performers" for OTP

Old Aug 26, 19, 12:02 pm
  #136  
 
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Originally Posted by skybluesea View Post


perfect example of lack of competition. None of that however excuses AC for poor asset utilization, which ultimately the board is accountable for.

I have an interesting anecdote in regards to asset utilization.

Back in the day, for the most part, 33/34 was the same plane. 34 would land in YYZ at 4ish and then leave at 8 back to YVR.

Kept things humming for the most part.

Now, 33 usually comes from 16 which arrives later and must be towed from International to Domestic and seems to be delayed more often because of it.

I appreciate some of this has to do with the MAX issues but it would seem like there are better options. Obviously asset utilization for a major airline is not my day job.
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Old Aug 26, 19, 2:49 pm
  #137  
 
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I know this may be a case of beating a dead horse...

I am in the middle of a segment run, and two out of five flights have been delayed thus far. One left early oddly enough.

Thankfully, I have a lot of time between flights so no worries about connections.
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Old Aug 26, 19, 3:22 pm
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Originally Posted by lcohen999 View Post
Obviously asset utilization for a major airline is not my day job.
Perhaps it could be; those charged with the task don't seem to be doing so well.
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Old Aug 26, 19, 8:35 pm
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Originally Posted by lcohen999 View Post
I have an interesting anecdote in regards to asset utilization.

Back in the day, for the most part, 33/34 was the same plane. 34 would land in YYZ at 4ish and then leave at 8 back to YVR.

Kept things humming for the most part.

Now, 33 usually comes from 16 which arrives later and must be towed from International to Domestic and seems to be delayed more often because of it.
AC16 often becomes 33. Even 10+ years ago.
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Old Aug 26, 19, 9:59 pm
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Originally Posted by tracon View Post
AC16 often becomes 33. Even 10+ years ago.
Maybe...I always remember walking off 34 at YYZ and the gate said 33 Vancouver/Sydney more often than not

...but that is why I mentioned it was anecdotal
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Old Aug 26, 19, 10:03 pm
  #141  
 
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I'm puzzled by the recurring statement here that AC's asset management is abysmal.

I don't know a single thing about airlines or the business of running them. I'm certain I'd lose an argument on the matter with 98% of you. Having said that...

Is it not possible that AC being consistently one of the worst OTP airlines globally is because they know EXACTLY how to manage their fleet for the purposes of maximum profitability?

It strikes me that most of you argue they're awful at it because it doesn't fit YOUR definition. You'd like them to be punctual, they aren't, and so they are clearly poor with asset management.

I believe we generally all agree at this point that AC doesn't give a hoot about OTP, right? Is that because they're stupid and can't do better? Or is it because their math tells them they are doing it right? I look at their revenue, profits, and share price over the last decade and I find it exceedingly difficult to suggest they are stupid.
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Old Aug 26, 19, 10:26 pm
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Originally Posted by WaytoomuchEurope View Post
they know EXACTLY how to manage their fleet for the purposes of maximum profitability
Yes. And customer service be damned. Why? Because in a near monopoly they can. And because it has now become the industry norm, so few, if any, are better, and they know it.
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Old Aug 26, 19, 10:50 pm
  #143  
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Originally Posted by WaytoomuchEurope View Post
I believe we generally all agree at this point that AC doesn't give a hoot about OTP, right? Is that because they're stupid and can't do better? Or is it because their math tells them they are doing it right? I look at their revenue, profits, and share price over the last decade and I find it exceedingly difficult to suggest they are stupid.
That's irrelevant. Maybe better OTP would further improve their profits.

Correlation, causation, etc.

Many people in many departments of AC are stupid. Many are very smart. The fact that the company is profitable certainly doesn't mean they're all smart though.
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Old Aug 26, 19, 11:25 pm
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Originally Posted by WaytoomuchEurope View Post
I look at their revenue, profits, and share price over the last decade and I find it exceedingly difficult to suggest they are stupid.
For stock prices, it depends on when you're in and out. I did a quick look at the chart of the stock price on Yahoo and from the beginning of the chart to today, it is now 2.16 times higher in 13 years. The Dow Jones is 2.11 times higher, so it basically tracked the index. You heard the phrase a rising tide floats all boats?

In the same time frame Delta has increased 2.7 times and gives a dividend (something AC doesn't do), so a much better investment United did 2.3, so not quite as good as Delta.

For that matter, Canadian Pacific Railway has gone up almost 5 times, plus a a dividend, so an even better investment.

I don't buy the hulabaloo that AC's management are geniuses when all they can do is follow the trend of the stock market and others in the transportation industry and giving much better shareholder returns. The results show they are average at best.

Maybe they can have a new advertising slogan to go with the Skytrax awards: "We're exceptionally average"
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Old Aug 27, 19, 9:27 am
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Originally Posted by lcohen999 View Post
Maybe...I always remember walking off 34 at YYZ and the gate said 33 Vancouver/Sydney more often than not

...but that is why I mentioned it was anecdotal
Last time I arrived in YYZ on 34, I noticed that the gate said 33 was next at that gate - but in fact a different FIN operated it, and it was the 16 77L. But your observation was right concerning delays because even if 16 is on time, it cannot be turned around in time (incl the tow). 33 has also been delayed in the past by crew issues - if the operating crew comes in from YUL on the last leg of a European service, any delay with that flight carries over to 33. Probably good resource management, but incompatible with OTP.
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Last edited by fin 645; Aug 27, 19 at 9:29 am Reason: sp
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Old Aug 27, 19, 11:07 am
  #146  
 
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Originally Posted by WaytoomuchEurope View Post
Is it not possible that AC being consistently one of the worst OTP airlines globally is because they know EXACTLY how to manage their fleet for the purposes of maximum profitability?
We've beaten this to death, most recently in the thread on Calin's stock exercise, but yes, this is exactly the case.

Better OTP would start with turn times that are not impossible and staffing the gate and ground staff (and grooming, if it even happens) at higher levels so that planes could be turned more quickly. That would require buying more planes to maintain the current route network (or cutting it back) and increasing headcount - but that isn't what AC management cares about. They place the financial performance of the airline way way above operational performance, and their consistently horrible OTP is the result of their balance in priorities.

You fly AC, you live with those choices.
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Old Aug 27, 19, 7:13 pm
  #147  
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Originally Posted by codfather View Post
I know this may be a case of beating a dead horse...

I am in the middle of a segment run, and two out of five flights have been delayed thus far. One left early oddly enough.

Thankfully, I have a lot of time between flights so no worries about connections.
Air Canada: "Hold my beer..."

Originally Posted by Jagboi View Post
For stock prices, it depends on when you're in and out. I did a quick look at the chart of the stock price on Yahoo and from the beginning of the chart to today, it is now 2.16 times higher in 13 years. The Dow Jones is 2.11 times higher, so it basically tracked the index. You heard the phrase a rising tide floats all boats?

In the same time frame Delta has increased 2.7 times and gives a dividend (something AC doesn't do), so a much better investment United did 2.3, so not quite as good as Delta.

For that matter, Canadian Pacific Railway has gone up almost 5 times, plus a a dividend, so an even better investment.

I don't buy the hulabaloo that AC's management are geniuses when all they can do is follow the trend of the stock market and others in the transportation industry and giving much better shareholder returns. The results show they are average at best.

Maybe they can have a new advertising slogan to go with the Skytrax awards: "We're exceptionally average"
So this, then?
Originally Posted by KenHamer View Post
Recently there have been many claims that Air Canada's rapidly escalating stock price was due to the skill (nay, brilliance) of their executive management team. I think that's utter nonsense.

[clip]

Don't believe me that Air Canada's stock price is primarily (if not solely) due to market conditions? Then have a look at the chart below. It shows the share price of 10, count 'em, 10, different North American airlines. And to highlight the best of Air Canada's "performance" I've trimmed the chart to only include the period from mid-August (when the price started its rapid increase) to mid-January (just prior to the big "crash.")

Which one of those lines is different from the rest?



And by "profits" I mean losses restated through the use of not generally accepted accounting principles.
Originally Posted by WaytoomuchEurope View Post
I'm puzzled by the recurring statement here that AC's asset management is abysmal.

I don't know a single thing about airlines or the business of running them. I'm certain I'd lose an argument on the matter with 98% of you. Having said that...

Is it not possible that AC being consistently one of the worst OTP airlines globally is because they know EXACTLY how to manage their fleet for the purposes of maximum profitability?

It strikes me that most of you argue they're awful at it because it doesn't fit YOUR definition. You'd like them to be punctual, they aren't, and so they are clearly poor with asset management.

I believe we generally all agree at this point that AC doesn't give a hoot about OTP, right? Is that because they're stupid and can't do better? Or is it because their math tells them they are doing it right? I look at their revenue, profits, and share price over the last decade and I find it exceedingly difficult to suggest they are stupid.
Many years ago I posted a thread about how the old joke "They're not happy until you're not happy" might actually apply to Air Canada.

I think every time an Air Canada exec sees a customer with a smile on their face they immediately think "We either did not charge them enough, or we are giving them too much." In fact, I suspect Air Canada's optimal "happiness level" is at exactly that point when a customer switches from "happy" to "not happy." Just raise the fare a little bit, or cut back service an equally small amount... until... snap!

OTP is one of those things. They customers are not happy about delays, but they are also not leaving in great numbers. So maybe their OTP is exactly where it should be.

If they could get every customer to just have ever so slight a frown, things would be perfect.
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Last edited by tcook052; Aug 27, 19 at 10:04 pm Reason: merge separate posts
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Old Aug 27, 19, 9:44 pm
  #148  
 
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Originally Posted by KenHamer View Post
Air Canada: "Hold my beer..."
All went well in the end! A couple of delays, but I had enough time for connections so it didn't affect me.
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Old Sep 2, 19, 3:47 pm
  #149  
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Random ......


AC0026/02SEP EQU ACA789P01
CTY TML ARR DEP GRND AIR CABINS J O Y
PVG - 1555 - 10.45
YVR 1140 TOTAL TIME PVGYVR 10.45

RMKS/FIN 843-DLYD DUE LATE INB AC025 ACCT BAGGAGE SEQUENCING...
FURTHER DLYD DUE NEW LOAD INSTRUCTIONS REQUIRED; YS.

PVG 1623 00:28L YVR 1206 00:26L 789 CGM AD AA
DEP TML 2 GATE --/D87
ARR TML M GATE --/-----


AC0008/02SEP EQU ACA77WH01
CTY TML ARR DEP GRND AIR CABINS J O Y
HKG - 1940 - 12.05
YVR 1645 TOTAL TIME HKGYVR 12.05

RMKS/DLYD DUE BAGGAGE SEQUENCING ☨OCM/NRT☨
HKG 2002 00:22L YVR 1651 00:06L 77W SEI AD EA

DEP TML 1 GATE --/45
ARR TML M GATE --/-----


AC0031/02SEP EQU ACA77WC01
CTY TML ARR DEP GRND AIR CABINS J O Y
YYZ - 1435 - 13.25
PEK 1600*1 TOTAL TIME YYZPEK 13.25
YYZ 1455 00:20L PEK 1600 77W PMD AD EA
DEP TML T1 GATE --/E77
ARR TML 3 GATE --/-----

RMKS/FIN 732 - DLYD DUE BAGGAGE SEQUENCE FOR PAX WHO LEFT READE
R IN CHECKED BAG, PAX WAS OFFLOADED AND REBOOKED //LL.


AC0063/02SEP EQU ACA789P01
CTY TML ARR DEP GRND AIR CABINS J O Y
YVR - 1050 - 11.00
ICN 1350*1 TOTAL TIME YVRICN 11.00

RMKS/FIN 847 - DLYD DUE LATE COMPLETION FUELLING //LL.

YVR 1106 00:16L ICN 1357 00:07L 789 ANF AD EA
DEP TML M GATE --/D53
ARR TML GATE --/-----


This is interesting

AC0080/02SEP EQU ACA789P01
CTY TML ARR DEP GRND AIR CABINS J O Y
YYZ - 1630 - 10.30
TLV 1000*1 TOTAL TIME YYZTLV 10.30

RMKS/FIN 835 - DLYD AWAITING 39 CNX PAX OFF AC794 //LL.

YYZ 1646 00:16L TLV 1001 00:01L 789 CNX AD EA
DEP TML T1 GATE --/E71
ARR TML 3 GATE --/-----


AC0029/01SEP EQU ACA77LB01
CTY TML ARR DEP GRND AIR CABINS J O Y
YVR - 1200 - 11.05
PEK 1405*1 TOTAL TIME YVRPEK 11.05

RMKS/DLYD DUE MTC FIN 706 POTABLE WATER INOP ☨OCM/NRT☨ FURTHER
DLYD DUE CATERING CHANGE ☨OCM/NRT☨

YVR 1306 01:06L PEK 1455 00:50L 77L MTP AD AA
DEP TML M GATE --/D52
ARR TML 3 GATE --/-----

.

Last edited by 24left; Sep 2, 19 at 4:06 pm
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Old Sep 2, 19, 4:04 pm
  #150  
 
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Originally Posted by fin 645 View Post
Last time I arrived in YYZ on 34, I noticed that the gate said 33 was next at that gate - but in fact a different FIN operated it, and it was the 16 77L. But your observation was right concerning delays because even if 16 is on time, it cannot be turned around in time (incl the tow). 33 has also been delayed in the past by crew issues - if the operating crew comes in from YUL on the last leg of a European service, any delay with that flight carries over to 33. Probably good resource management, but incompatible with OTP.
The last sentence basically describes all of Air Canada's operations. A delay of even 2 hours on a widebody will cascade for days because it is scheduled to turn around perfectly from Montreal to Tokyo to Montreal to Vancouver to Tokyo without even 1 minute allowance for anything going wrong.
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