Refused transport because of 8.5lb dog... why?
Jun 12, 2019, 4:43 pm
#136
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 492
IDB doesn't smell right. I'm sure that while the GAs are instructed to pay out as little in compensation as they can, if they have to, they aren't going to get in trouble for having to pay something out. And its not like it is their personal money.
It isn't conceivable that AC would have a policy, official or back channel, to find people with borderline dogs to not-quite-IDB to save $1000. What you got here wasn't a well thought out conspiracy, it was a run of the mill power-tripping GA.
It isn't conceivable that AC would have a policy, official or back channel, to find people with borderline dogs to not-quite-IDB to save $1000. What you got here wasn't a well thought out conspiracy, it was a run of the mill power-tripping GA.
Jun 12, 2019, 5:18 pm
#137
Original Poster
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: YYZ
Posts: 57
Just a FYI in case you weren't aware: A run-of-the-mill IDB/VDB due to overbooking would imply that the IDB'd passenger would receive a denied boarding compensation receipt, and the subsequent compensation for the denied boarding, and then "re-accommodated" on a near-future flight. AFAIK, none of that occurred for you.
Are there are notable scenarios (been wading through the forums a bit) where an airline has been accused of over booking but in fact they were not. *IF* the flight was not indeed overbooked and here I am asking them in writing to confirm this- is that something the airline/customer relations would indeed confirm (as in “Our records indicate that the flight shows 15 unsold seats therefore we could of accommodated but it was against our policy”)? Is that information that (can be) shared with me as a passenger? If the flight truly was not overbooked why wouldn’t they go on the record to me/the media when they had the chance? (If not allowed; then that answers that).
I know my scenario is very unique... given everything and from what I’ve been told / advice I have received from some very helpful PM’s ...it’s been theorized that:
1) Flight was overbooked and they needed 2 volunteers; here I come with my husband (& dog) and we were easy to offload citing WE were not within AC’s pet in cabin policy.
2) Since it’s been established (in writing) our behaviour was not rude or threatening and clearly it’s not the policy of YQB to remove pax- why call security. As per AC’s direction we were escorted out of the terminal. Meanwhile, boarding continued for another 15 minutes past posted departure (We were safely escorted away so we could not witness non-rev or standby interactions with the GAs). The GA’s had another 15 minutes to find a solution for us (whether this meant rebooking the next day or even bothering to look at my documents) but removing both of us was the only action taken.
I suspect they will ignore you and hope you will go away. That’s a pretty common tactic. Your dilemma is whether you want to go through all of this angst for what will undoubtedly be not what you hoped. I am coming to realize that when you let people and things drive you crazy, they actually win anyway. Unless you have sufficient funds to instruct a lawyer and give them carte blanche.
We have a paralegal who is assisting us in small claims. My husband’s firm he uses for his business set it up for us- some of the partners though are super interested in the outcome and have directed us from the beginning on how to proceed. We aren’t here to make a payout and the total claim is relatively small (to lawyer up would be over the top IMHO).
Last edited by Adam Smith; Aug 11, 2022 at 5:00 pm Reason: Merge consecutive posts by same user
Jun 12, 2019, 5:32 pm
#138
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I suggest that you have nothing to lose with a CTA complaint. Yes, it is a bureaucratic exercise, and yes the agency can move slower than a snail on Xanax, but you have a solid case and it is your right to seek a remedy. I have read this thread since the time you first posted, and my feeling is that the GA and local management screwed up. No, the airline keeps obfuscating, delaying etc. because it has backed itself into a corner. Hopefully, the case reaches the desk of senior legal counsel and she/he says enough, let's do the right thing. I don't think Air Canada was expecting someone as restrained, calm and organized as you to keep at this. Stay the course and see it through. And with each passing month that Air Canada delays in providing fair compensation, it puts itself in a more difficult position.
The whole story is somehow reminding me of the DrunkCargo AC situation. There the company seemed to irrationally go to the wall when an employee decided to "get even" with an AC FFer. Here it could have been someone's "bright idea" for how to solve an oversell situation cheaply or it could be some employee with his/her own animal rights radical perspective, but once again I find it hard to understand why AC would go to this extent to back a power tripping lower level employee like this.
Jun 12, 2019, 5:59 pm
#139
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^oh okay yes that part I understand. My bad; what I am asking is:
Are there are notable scenarios (been wading through the forums a bit) where an airline has been accused of over booking but in fact they were not. *IF* the flight was not indeed overbooked and here I am asking them in writing to confirm this- is that something the airline/customer relations would indeed confirm (as in “Our records indicate that the flight shows 15 unsold seats therefore we could of accommodated but it was against our policy”)? Is that information that (can be) shared with me as a passenger? If the flight truly was not overbooked why wouldn’t they go on the record to me/the media when they had the chance? (If not allowed; then that answers that).
I know my scenario is very unique... given everything and from what I’ve been told / advice I have received from some very helpful PM’s ...it’s been theorized that:
1) Flight was overbooked and they needed 2 volunteers; here I come with my husband (& dog) and we were easy to offload citing WE were not within AC’s pet in cabin policy.
2) Since it’s been established (in writing) our behaviour was not rude or threatening and clearly it’s not the policy of YQB to remove pax- why call security. As per AC’s direction we were escorted out of the terminal. Meanwhile, boarding continued for another 15 minutes past posted departure (We were safely escorted away so we could not witness non-rev or standby interactions with the GAs). The GA’s had another 15 minutes to find a solution for us (whether this meant rebooking the next day or even bothering to look at my documents) but removing both of us was the only action taken.
My point is that if AC uses that as additional "reason" to deny you boarding then looking solely at that, they did not go through the steps i.e. issue a DB receipt, provide comp, rebook on future flight, etc., so that argument would not be legit, per se.
An overbooked flight would mean potential VDB/IDB at the gate. So if it wasn't overbooked, no reason to VDB/IDB based on the overbooked "slant".
Jun 12, 2019, 7:47 pm
#140
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 733
I suggest that you have nothing to lose with a CTA complaint. Yes, it is a bureaucratic exercise, and yes the agency can move slower than a snail on Xanax, but you have a solid case and it is your right to seek a remedy. I have read this thread since the time you first posted, and my feeling is that the GA and local management screwed up. No, the airline keeps obfuscating, delaying etc. because it has backed itself into a corner. Hopefully, the case reaches the desk of senior legal counsel and she/he says enough, let's do the right thing. I don't think Air Canada was expecting someone as restrained, calm and organized as you to keep at this. Stay the course and see it through. And with each passing month that Air Canada delays in providing fair compensation, it puts itself in a more difficult position.
To summarize timelines, I submitted complaint online in September 2018, case was assigned to CTA officer for facilitation end of October, we went in circles (super inefficient process communicating per above) until January 2019 without any movement, reassigned to next level and consequently new case officer was assigned end of February, we went a few rounds and came to a settlement in May, and AC sent me the funds within 3 business days thereafter. Just shy of 9 months for the process, and we didn't even move to adjudication. There are many delays that occur due to workload of both CTA and AC, and mkssed phone calls, so sometimes they go radio silent for a month or two at a time.
I think small claims is the way to go here because your issue isn't so much a matter of tariff interpretation, but rather yours is about fact-finding and determining whose story is truthful. The CTA can't really help you with that.
Jun 12, 2019, 9:15 pm
#141
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1. It reinforces that the plaintiff has made a good faith effort to resolve the matter.
2. Courts appreciate efforts made to resolve issues before they result in a court filing. A lack of co-operation by Air Canada works against the airline.
3. The issue most certainly involves the tariff. https://www.aircanada.com/content/da..._tariff_en.pdf I draw your attention to page 32 which sets out the provisions of animal transport. This plaintiff claims that despite following the rules set out in the tariff ,her party was denied boarding. I believe that it brings in the provisions of Page 72 as well.
4. Strategy: A CTA complaint can establish facts that most likely not be established in small claims court, specifically if the aircraft was overbooked. The question can be asked about whether or not the aircraft was at capacity and if passengers from other flights were put on to this flight. The answer would go to the motive for this fiasco.
5. Public Service - The plaintiff is doing a public service. Whether that is the intent or not doesn't matter. If she wins her case, this might cause Air Canada to clarify the company position and prevent a repeat. If people do not complain with solid cases, it allows the airlines to continue with their attitude. This applies to all of the airlines in Canada.
And again, I stress, I understand and accept your position, but the plaintiff here is one of the better types of cases that will go to the CTA. Anyway, up to her and her spouse, as this will indeed take some time.
And for my own personal agenda: If the couple were as calm as they said they were, the use of security to escort them away, is upsetting. I see it as a petty attempt at intimidation and a gross misuse of a measure intended for legitimate health and safety incidents. I am quite concerned over the possible misuse of the security personnel as it suggests an abuse of position.
Last edited by Transpacificflyer; Jun 12, 2019 at 9:21 pm
Jun 12, 2019, 11:32 pm
#142
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: NYC
Programs: UA
Posts: 444
Blondie85 I am interested in your problem and I am sorry this happened. My first thought was that this was an overzealous gate agent who identifies as an animal rights person and I still think this way.
If the flight was overbooked it is not likely that they would wait until zone 3 to look for reasons to deny boarding. This type of planning just seems too much for a gate agent. And if you had a 4 lb Yorkie puppy well nefarious plan foiled.
I have volunteered for an animal rescue — and have met people that are just too extreme. You do not feed your pet a raw diet — you are poisoning them with commercial pet food! Or that I am giving into big pharma by vaccinating...And then further outrage ensues all while I am a volunteer foster for a rescue that takes animals from an overcrowded municipal shelter that has to accept each and every surrender.
I had several conversations with a friend last fall about the issue of the carrier and pet size — friend was relocating to Europe and that meant taking the cat in the airplane. The cat weighs 8 lbs — but has an incredibly long and thick tail — looks like a lemur — tail just unusual proportions on the cat — and same size carrier as you have. There was a concern that someone could claim that the carrier was too small because of the length of the tail and just go extreme. There were no worries about the paperwork (all health documents and pet fee paid) some worries about about TSA screening but the biggest concern was check in/gate agent being an extreme animal activist.
Your experience was our worst fear. I am very interested in the outcome and hope it is positive for yo.
If the flight was overbooked it is not likely that they would wait until zone 3 to look for reasons to deny boarding. This type of planning just seems too much for a gate agent. And if you had a 4 lb Yorkie puppy well nefarious plan foiled.
I have volunteered for an animal rescue — and have met people that are just too extreme. You do not feed your pet a raw diet — you are poisoning them with commercial pet food! Or that I am giving into big pharma by vaccinating...And then further outrage ensues all while I am a volunteer foster for a rescue that takes animals from an overcrowded municipal shelter that has to accept each and every surrender.
I had several conversations with a friend last fall about the issue of the carrier and pet size — friend was relocating to Europe and that meant taking the cat in the airplane. The cat weighs 8 lbs — but has an incredibly long and thick tail — looks like a lemur — tail just unusual proportions on the cat — and same size carrier as you have. There was a concern that someone could claim that the carrier was too small because of the length of the tail and just go extreme. There were no worries about the paperwork (all health documents and pet fee paid) some worries about about TSA screening but the biggest concern was check in/gate agent being an extreme animal activist.
Your experience was our worst fear. I am very interested in the outcome and hope it is positive for yo.
Jun 13, 2019, 6:48 am
#143
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: YQB
Programs: AC SE
Posts: 2,139
2) Since it’s been established (in writing) our behaviour was not rude or threatening and clearly it’s not the policy of YQB to remove pax- why call security. As per AC’s direction we were escorted out of the terminal. Meanwhile, boarding continued for another 15 minutes past posted departure (We were safely escorted away so we could not witness non-rev or standby interactions with the GAs). The GA’s had another 15 minutes to find a solution for us (whether this meant rebooking the next day or even bothering to look at my documents) but removing both of us was the only action taken.
Jun 13, 2019, 8:34 am
#144
Original Poster
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: YYZ
Posts: 57
Just a minor comment on the bolded sentence. There is no AC customer service desk airside in YQB. There are only a handful of sometimes overworked GAs that will go from one gate to the other to board flights or they will just go back to work the check-in counters once they are done boarding flights. In IRROPS situation, they never rebook passengers airside. Instead, they always direct people to exit the sterile area and head back to the check-in counters for rebooking. Of course, what I usually do at that point is head to the lounge, find a quiet corner and call AC reservations to rebook on whatever flights I want.
I don’t believe AT ALL he was a manager and there was nobody above him to give him a second opinion. His general demeanour it seemed even HE didn’t know what AC policies were. I swear he scrolled through the (public) AC Pet Policy page for 10 minutes.
He also could of at least given us clear instructions- when I called AC they would not allow us to rebook. We were told we had forfeited our flights because it was a basic fare. Don’t know if his notes on file reflected this but 2 different agents would not help us (that was the last flight out to YYZ from YQB.... and there were seats from YUL and YOW on later flights). There was never a discussion as to WHY (and the excuse given days later that they needed me to get a different carrier for him was not given).
Maybe I should of started yelling to speak to a manager/causing a scene perhaps things would of ended differently and I would of been on the flight with my family?
Jun 13, 2019, 11:19 am
#145
Original Poster
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: YYZ
Posts: 57
Blondie85 I am interested in your problem and I am sorry this happened. My first thought was that this was an overzealous gate agent who identifies as an animal rights person and I still think this way.
If the flight was overbooked it is not likely that they would wait until zone 3 to look for reasons to deny boarding. This type of planning just seems too much for a gate agent. And if you had a 4 lb Yorkie puppy well nefarious plan foiled.
I have volunteered for an animal rescue — and have met people that are just too extreme. You do not feed your pet a raw diet — you are poisoning them with commercial pet food! Or that I am giving into big pharma by vaccinating...And then further outrage ensues all while I am a volunteer foster for a rescue that takes animals from an overcrowded municipal shelter that has to accept each and every surrender.
I had several conversations with a friend last fall about the issue of the carrier and pet size — friend was relocating to Europe and that meant taking the cat in the airplane. The cat weighs 8 lbs — but has an incredibly long and thick tail — looks like a lemur — tail just unusual proportions on the cat — and same size carrier as you have. There was a concern that someone could claim that the carrier was too small because of the length of the tail and just go extreme. There were no worries about the paperwork (all health documents and pet fee paid) some worries about about TSA screening but the biggest concern was check in/gate agent being an extreme animal activist.
Your experience was our worst fear. I am very interested in the outcome and hope it is positive for yo.
If the flight was overbooked it is not likely that they would wait until zone 3 to look for reasons to deny boarding. This type of planning just seems too much for a gate agent. And if you had a 4 lb Yorkie puppy well nefarious plan foiled.
I have volunteered for an animal rescue — and have met people that are just too extreme. You do not feed your pet a raw diet — you are poisoning them with commercial pet food! Or that I am giving into big pharma by vaccinating...And then further outrage ensues all while I am a volunteer foster for a rescue that takes animals from an overcrowded municipal shelter that has to accept each and every surrender.
I had several conversations with a friend last fall about the issue of the carrier and pet size — friend was relocating to Europe and that meant taking the cat in the airplane. The cat weighs 8 lbs — but has an incredibly long and thick tail — looks like a lemur — tail just unusual proportions on the cat — and same size carrier as you have. There was a concern that someone could claim that the carrier was too small because of the length of the tail and just go extreme. There were no worries about the paperwork (all health documents and pet fee paid) some worries about about TSA screening but the biggest concern was check in/gate agent being an extreme animal activist.
Your experience was our worst fear. I am very interested in the outcome and hope it is positive for yo.
I never once thought for a second that I would have issues travelling with our dog! I had travelled previously with my other Shih Tzu who teetered around 20lbs at his prime. Having seen larger breeds travelling (and know of friends who travel regularly with their pug) I never ever ever thought our 8.5 ball of fluff would have a hard time (and truly his fur is deceiving).
I can appreciate that GAs may not have expertise on animals nor may not even like them to begin with. Which is fine. And I agree with your thoughts that denying boarding at Zone 3 likely doesn’t make sense. The idea somewhat arose when others had mentioned to me their could of been non-rev pax (or friends of the GA) wanting to board which is why he was so adamant to get 2 seats from us. I know PURE speculation.... the fact that AC has been uncooperative in regards to my 2x PIPIDA requests and have failed to respond to me makes me think there’s more to this story yet to be uncovered.
We actually just got him into a much more suitable summer coat (here he is NOW) the top photo was taken exactly a week after the incident at YQB. I’m sure it’s pretty obvious his true body size (I don’t know how to post videos but you can look here: https://mobile.twitter.com/ShihtzuWhisky)
Jun 13, 2019, 1:11 pm
#146
Original Poster
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: YYZ
Posts: 57
Does anyone have any insight in regards to the acronym Air Canada’s “SOB”?
I have attached the link (the speaker in the clip is from YQB’s executive office who is reading me the incident report and answering some questions I had) this was when they returned my call on April 10th 2019:
....Only thing I can come up with is “souls on board” besides the other not so nice acronym
I have attached the link (the speaker in the clip is from YQB’s executive office who is reading me the incident report and answering some questions I had) this was when they returned my call on April 10th 2019:
....Only thing I can come up with is “souls on board” besides the other not so nice acronym
Jun 13, 2019, 1:23 pm
#147
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: YQB
Programs: AC SE
Posts: 2,139
Does anyone have any insight in regards to the acronym Air Canada’s “SOB”?
I have attached the link (the speaker in the clip is from YQB’s executive office who is reading me the incident report and answering some questions I had) this was when they returned my call on April 10th 2019:
https://vimeo.com/342096201
....Only thing I can come up with is “souls on board” besides the other not so nice acronym
I have attached the link (the speaker in the clip is from YQB’s executive office who is reading me the incident report and answering some questions I had) this was when they returned my call on April 10th 2019:
https://vimeo.com/342096201
....Only thing I can come up with is “souls on board” besides the other not so nice acronym
Jun 13, 2019, 1:49 pm
#148
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: NYC
Programs: UA
Posts: 444
Blondie85 Whiskey is adorable -- and certainly very fluffy at times! I once transported a kitten -- about 4 months old so about 4 lbs -- and the agent asked if the pet could stand up and turn around but it seemed like a formality. Last year I was leaving Kansas City and there was a woman who had flown in from Vancouver BC for the day to pick up a Corgi puppy. The puppy was larger than Whiskey and had the same carrier as you have. The Corgi was painfully cute and sweet -- I wanted to take him home, The Corgi owner was going to be connecting but not on Air Canada.
As my friends were relocating they worried about everything and I got text updates up to the moment the turn off the phones announcement went on, The lemur tailed cat is living with a view of the sea and was well behaved on the entire flight, only meowed at disembarking.
I guess I do not give the gate agent enough credit to come up with the plan to deny boarding to someone in that manner -- easier to start boarding early and close out the flight early and tell the late comers -- "oh too bad" -- but I could be completely wrong with this,
The comment about it being inhumane to have even the fluffy Whiskey in a carrier that size is just silly, it is not as if you had a Great Dane stuffed in there. It could also be someone that does not know animals like you said and does not like them, or a super opinionated and self-righteous animal "advocate". Either type would easily resort to the strong arm tactics which you endured. Why is AC being to difficult -- I do not know what their corporate strategy is, ignore and hope you go away or give it to the legal department and only answer when necessary.
I am will be watching the thread and am paying attention to your case as this is something that could easily happen to me or one of my friends. Keep us updated as much as possible.
As my friends were relocating they worried about everything and I got text updates up to the moment the turn off the phones announcement went on, The lemur tailed cat is living with a view of the sea and was well behaved on the entire flight, only meowed at disembarking.
I guess I do not give the gate agent enough credit to come up with the plan to deny boarding to someone in that manner -- easier to start boarding early and close out the flight early and tell the late comers -- "oh too bad" -- but I could be completely wrong with this,
The comment about it being inhumane to have even the fluffy Whiskey in a carrier that size is just silly, it is not as if you had a Great Dane stuffed in there. It could also be someone that does not know animals like you said and does not like them, or a super opinionated and self-righteous animal "advocate". Either type would easily resort to the strong arm tactics which you endured. Why is AC being to difficult -- I do not know what their corporate strategy is, ignore and hope you go away or give it to the legal department and only answer when necessary.
I am will be watching the thread and am paying attention to your case as this is something that could easily happen to me or one of my friends. Keep us updated as much as possible.
Jun 13, 2019, 3:52 pm
#150
Original Poster
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: YYZ
Posts: 57
Ha right?
On and small update...
I had sent the PIPIDA request in April via registered mail (as recommended by the law firm) - nothing.
Sent another request a few days ago and received a reply today that I will have it within 30 days.
(A bit skeptical what it will show us or what to expect. Has anyone requested this information before?)