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Old Feb 14, 2019, 12:23 pm
  #16  
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Originally Posted by Adam Smith
I feel like @canadiancow would probably know the answer. I'm surprised he hasn't popped up in this thread.
Sorry.

Originally Posted by joejones
The rule is, essentially, that an operating carrier from country A can't take you between two points in country B. So you could fly UA metal LAX-YYZ-IAD, or AC metal YYZ-ORD-YVR, but you couldn't fly AC metal LAX-YYZ-IAD or UA metal YYZ-ORD-YVR.
But you could fly AC LAX-YYZ UA YYZ-IAD.

Though it could still be a challenge to ticket.
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Old Feb 14, 2019, 12:32 pm
  #17  
 
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Originally Posted by canadiancow
But you could fly AC LAX-YYZ UA YYZ-IAD.
Nope. Under US law, foreign aircraft cannot "take on for compensation, at a place in the United States, passengers or cargo destined for another place in the United States."
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Old Feb 14, 2019, 12:35 pm
  #18  
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Originally Posted by canadiancow
Sorry.
No worries, you can't be everywhere

But you could fly AC LAX-YYZ UA YYZ-IAD.
As I expected
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Old Feb 14, 2019, 1:07 pm
  #19  
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Originally Posted by joejones
Nope. Under US law, foreign aircraft cannot "take on for compensation, at a place in the United States, passengers or cargo destined for another place in the United States."
This is the key.

Who markets or tickets is irrelevant. In fact, AC could ticket on UA metal LAX-YYZ-IAD if one were inclined to do that. But, UA could not market/ticket AC metal for that route.

Indeed it is not the passenger breaking the law, but it is the passenger standing there at LAX with a cancelled ticket and a refund/
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Old Feb 14, 2019, 4:09 pm
  #20  
 
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Originally Posted by joejones
The rule is, essentially, that an operating carrier from country A can't take you between two points in country B. So you could fly UA metal LAX-YYZ-IAD, or AC metal YYZ-ORD-YVR, but you couldn't fly AC metal LAX-YYZ-IAD or UA metal YYZ-ORD-YVR.
So AC can sell you LAX YYZ IAD if at least one segment is operated by UA?
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Old Feb 14, 2019, 8:59 pm
  #21  
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Originally Posted by s0ssos
So AC can sell you LAX YYZ IAD if at least one segment is operated by UA?
And if, as asserted above, the answer is No does it make a difference if Aeroplan is the agent that sells you the ticket (at least until next year)? Or any other *A program?

YYZ-IAD is operated by both AC and UA so it is certainly possible to construct a mixed-metal itinerary.
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Old Feb 14, 2019, 11:24 pm
  #22  
 
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I’m so confused by the point of this thread. If OP wants the return to be LAX-IAD why is it that YYZ is being considered as a connection point? There are likely non-stop options via UA, or a great deal of connections possible on UA. There is no issue with Aeroplan ticketing the return between LAX and IAD on UA. Both cities are UA hubs, so there are probably 25+ spoke cities served from each of these hubs that could be easy connection points if non-stop isn’t available.

I’d like to know why OP is insisting on routing via yyz as there may be alternate methods of achieving whatever goal they have in mind.
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Old Feb 15, 2019, 12:30 am
  #23  
 
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Originally Posted by YEG USER
I’m so confused by the point of this thread. If OP wants the return to be LAX-IAD why is it that YYZ is being considered as a connection point?
Indeed. It tends to be that the unusual is expensive.

by definition of law "third country cabatage''' is not a thing.
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Old Feb 15, 2019, 2:02 am
  #24  
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Originally Posted by joejones
Nope. Under US law, foreign aircraft cannot "take on for compensation, at a place in the United States, passengers or cargo destined for another place in the United States."
Assuming I read that the way you're suggesting, then LAX-YYZ-IAD would be fine if it were operated by UA, then AC? But not vice versa? That doesn't make much sense when looking at the spirit of any cabotage rules.

I've been asking about cabotage on FT for years and I have yet to have anyone give me a well-sourced definition that uses well-defined terms and isn't easy to poke glaring holes in.
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Old Feb 15, 2019, 2:45 am
  #25  
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Originally Posted by YEG USER

I’d like to know why OP is insisting on routing via yyz as there may be alternate methothatds of achieving whatever goal they have in mind.
Fair question, in fact there is a direct MEX-IAD that would be even more convenient.

I have two reasons to route via YYZ, the primary one being that the trip is for an extended family vacation and I would like to stopover in Toronto if possible, or at least accompany my folks to and from MEX. Secondly, UA transcon J saver availability is terrible, while AC Rouge has 4+ seats open for our dates. Lastly, the AE infant award fees are the lowest in the business.

The open jaw to LAX is optional, but itt would let us tag on a side trip to SoCal.


Thanks
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Old Feb 15, 2019, 7:57 am
  #26  
 
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Originally Posted by canadiancow
Assuming I read that the way you're suggesting, then LAX-YYZ-IAD would be fine if it were operated by UA, then AC? But not vice versa? That doesn't make much sense when looking at the spirit of any cabotage rules.
As I read the statute, that's what it literally says. The actual law is here if you want to read it for yourself (go to paragraph (c)).
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Old Feb 15, 2019, 8:26 am
  #27  
 
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Originally Posted by canadiancow
I've been asking about cabotage on FT for years and I have yet to have anyone give me a well-sourced definition that uses well-defined terms and isn't easy to poke glaring holes in.
There's the issue: you're seeking answers on the wrong forum. These are not subject matter experts. Obtain info elsewhere.
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Old Feb 15, 2019, 9:12 am
  #28  
 
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Originally Posted by Points Poppa
I would like to stopover in Toronto
If you have things to do in Canada beyond changing flights, then it would not be cabotage.

Exactly where that line would be is a question for a judge, but if you leave the airport and take a meeting, meal, or throw some chairs around downtown, no one is going to question how much cabotage-y it is.
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Old Feb 15, 2019, 9:38 am
  #29  
 
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Originally Posted by RangerNS
If you have things to do in Canada beyond changing flights, then it would not be cabotage.
It's not quite that simple. Asiana got fined for selling US-ICN-GUM itineraries with shopping stopovers in Seoul and DOT said that the flight would be considered cabotage if the stopover is "incidental" to a continuous trip...
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Old Feb 15, 2019, 9:51 am
  #30  
 
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Originally Posted by joejones
It's not quite that simple. Asiana got fined for selling US-ICN-GUM itineraries with shopping stopovers in Seoul and DOT said that the flight would be considered cabotage if the stopover is "incidental" to a continuous trip...
As I said, the exact details would be a question of legal fact, for a judge to decide.

OPs story has changed, or is slowly leaking out critical details. If he plans on being in Toronto for > 24 (using the word "stopover" correctly) then I would think the ticket would be issued without problems. There are cheaper, faster, better direct routes, no one could reasonably infer intent to screw over domestic US shipping concerns, dragging themselves and their family across the border, vs the more reasonable explanation of actually doing something in Toronto.
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