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Why does AC not have registrations appear on wing undersides?

Why does AC not have registrations appear on wing undersides?

Old Jan 1, 2019, 8:14 pm
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Question Why does AC not have registrations appear on wing undersides?

While I know that it is optional under Canadian law I'm just wondering why Air Canada aircraft do not have identification appear on wing undersides?

I do not see any other airlines with this omission but would have thought it an advisable inclusion given the number of countries AC flies to or whose airspace is routinely overflown.
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Old Jan 1, 2019, 8:28 pm
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Originally Posted by TemboOne
While I know that it is optional under Canadian law I'm just wondering why Air Canada aircraft do not have identification appear on wing undersides?

I do not see any other airlines with this omission but would have thought it an advisable inclusion given the number of countries AC flies to or whose airspace is routinely overflown.
Doesnt AC new paint job have their Logo on the aircraft underside? I would say the majority of airlines do not do this.
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Old Jan 1, 2019, 8:29 pm
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When overflying any jurisdiction, aircraft are not visually identified by their civil registration decals.
Air Canada can barely keep its fuselage & empennage decals from peeling, cracking or fading away; it doesn't need the hassles of more to look after.

Originally Posted by 5mm
Doesn’t AC new paint job have their Logo on the aircraft underside? I would say the majority of airlines do not do this.
Yes, it does (just the maple leaf roundel, not any text. Several other large airlines (Delta, Emirates, Virgin Atlantic, Qatar, Turkish, Aer Lingus all come to mind) preceded Air Canada in this regard.

Last edited by CZAMFlyer; Jan 1, 2019 at 8:34 pm
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Old Jan 1, 2019, 9:33 pm
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Originally Posted by CZAMFlyer
When overflying any jurisdiction, aircraft are not visually identified by their civil registration decals.
Air Canada can barely keep its fuselage & empennage decals from peeling, cracking or fading away; it doesn't need the hassles of more to look after.
Yes, it does (just the maple leaf roundel, not any text. Several other large airlines (Delta, Emirates, Virgin Atlantic, Qatar, Turkish, Aer Lingus all come to mind) preceded Air Canada in this regard.
Perhaps I should have been more specific. I am referring to the civil registration (such as C-GHPQ for fin 801) and not corporate logos.
As to Aer Lingus. I am familiar with almost every single airliner they currently have in use, particularly their Airbus fleet, and they all have their EI-XXX registration on the underside of the port wing near as practical to the wing tip. This location seems to be an industry standard. Can't really question any other examples you give but it's interesting that AC seems to have voluntarily elected to not have this optional identifier on their metal.

While it is true that airborne aircraft are not normally identified by their civil registration such identifier could be helpful in an emergency such as an airborne intercept because of radio and/or transponder failure or an accidental emergency squawk.

Additional info: Just checked Virgin Atlantic because I realised I had some small experience with them.
Looking at airliners.net, all the Virgin Atlantic metal in flight that had the underside of the port wing visible have the civil registration painted on them. Notably this included four of their 789 Dreamliners, G-VAHH, G-VDIA, G-VWHO and G-VZIG as well as the A330 G-VNYC.

Last edited by TemboOne; Jan 1, 2019 at 9:53 pm Reason: Adding data re Virgin Atlantic
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Old Jan 1, 2019, 9:48 pm
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Originally Posted by TemboOne
Perhaps I should have been more specific. I am referring to the civil registration (such as C-GHPQ for fin 801) and not corporate logos.
As to Aer Lingus. I am familiar with almost every single airliner they currently have in use, particularly their Airbus fleet, and they all have their EI-XXX registration on the underside of the port wing near as practical to the wing tip. This location seems to be an industry standard. Can't really question any other examples you give but it's interesting that AC seems to have voluntarily elected to not have this optional identifier on their metal.

While it is true that airborne aircraft are not normally identified by their civil registration such identifier could be helpful in an emergency such as an airborne intercept because of radio and/or transponder failure or an accidental emergency squawk.
Why exactly do you think AC should do this? You do know that all airliners have to have the ID painted on the fuselage near the rear door, right? As for the underwing being "industry standard", you say that EI has it, and based on looking at a few shots on Planespotters, so do WS and BA, but UA, AA and DL don't, nor does LH.

You will also find the airline's fin number on the tail and the nose wheel door.
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Old Jan 1, 2019, 10:28 pm
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Oh dear, I seem to have upset someone!

Originally Posted by Adam Smith
Why exactly do you think AC should do this? You do know that all airliners have to have the ID painted on the fuselage near the rear door, right? As for the underwing being "industry standard", you say that EI has it, and based on looking at a few shots on Planespotters, so do WS and BA, but UA, AA and DL don't, nor does LH.

You will also find the airline's fin number on the tail and the nose wheel door.
I think it is just a matter of common sense that all airlines follow this practice and certainly common throughout most of the world, except possibly the US.
As to Planespotters, whatever that may be, I've never heard of them!

I have been on literally every Aer Lingus EI plane, right back to the old vintage DH84 Dragon EI-AFK, now EI-ABI, most recently a short hop on EI-DEN, and many many others. I do not need to go to picture sites such as airliner.net other than for research. But having been RTW a number of times and all over SE Asia on many 9Vs from DC3s to Comets, I have never once seen a civil airliner without an underside registration on the port wing.

Incidentally, regarding the nosewheel door identifier, you do know that's for the airline's own convenience. While AC uses the fin number such as 801 for GHPQ, other airlines such as Aer Lingus use a shortened version of the civil registration; EI-DEN being just DEN, while some countries abbreviate it to two letters.

I just feel that with the extent that AC serves the world having the under-wing registration included would be prudent step.
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Old Jan 1, 2019, 10:47 pm
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Why doesnt AC display the Reg on the aircraft wing?

I think the answer might be a bit more simple than youd like but i quickly looked through the CARs and I dont think Canadian operators are required to display the registration under wings like in other countries .

From section 222.01:
(h) the display of marks on the bottom surface of the wings is optional,
In the UK it looks like displaying it under the wing is not optional and that it must be visible to all viewers even on the ground:
Paragraph 1(2) of the Schedule says that the nationality and registration marks shall be displayed to the best advantage taking into consideration the constructional features of the aircraft; and shall always be kept clean and visible. The best advantage is the best advantage of an external viewer either on the ground or in another aircraft.
My bet is AC doesnt display the reg under the wing because they dont have to while other carriers from other nations are required to display it based on their own countries regs .

Edit: Just reread your post and saw you knew it was optional. No idea beyond that why they dont display it .
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Last edited by C-FMWQ; Jan 1, 2019 at 10:53 pm
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Old Jan 1, 2019, 11:25 pm
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It looks bad and costs something to maintain.
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Old Jan 2, 2019, 2:17 am
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I think they should paint the flight number on the underside.
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Old Jan 2, 2019, 10:30 am
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Originally Posted by KenHamer
I think they should paint the flight number on the underside.
A counter of # of luggage lost on flights operated by this craft.

a panel where the crew has autographed their names.

lol
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Old Jan 2, 2019, 10:48 am
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Originally Posted by TemboOne
Perhaps I should have been more specific. I am referring to the civil registration (such as C-GHPQ for fin 801) and not corporate logos.
I understood. The logo comment was in response to another member's post.

Originally Posted by TemboOne
Oh dear, I seem to have upset someone!
Not to worry, you're in good company.

Originally Posted by TemboOne
But having been RTW a number of times and all over SE Asia on many 9Vs from DC3s to Comets, I have never once seen a civil airliner without an underside registration on the port wing.
I'd cheekily suggest you're not looking hard enough. But from most passengers' perspectives, underside markings are tricky to spot.
Originally Posted by Adam Smith
You do know that all airliners have to have the ID painted on the fuselage near the rear door, right?
There is no requirement that it need be near the rear door. That location just happens to be convenient, offers the space, and is aesthetically more pleasing.
Originally Posted by C-FMWQ
My bet is AC doesn’t display the reg under the wing because they don’t have to while other carriers from other nations are required to display it based on their own countries regs
Bingo. In Canada, AC, WS, WG all opt not to affix registration under their wings; TS does so. Je ne sais pourquoi.

Originally Posted by TemboOne
I just feel that with the extent that AC serves the world having the under-wing registration included would be prudent step.
Fair enough, but I think the requirements to be seen visually from below are antiquated; it's not a safety enhancement, and there are plenty of formal (en route nav) and informal (flight tracker app) methods to identify the aircraft in flight without laying eyes on it. I'm not aware of a valid, modern reason for this regulation, but perhaps somebody can enlighten me.
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Old Jan 2, 2019, 12:29 pm
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Originally Posted by C-FMWQ
My bet is AC doesn’t display the reg under the wing because they don’t have to while other carriers from other nations are required to display it based on their own countries regs .

Edit: Just reread your post and saw you knew it was optional. No idea beyond that why they don’t display it .
In all seriousness, isn't squawk # much more relevant to aircraft identification in the era of jet airliners and IFR? If things go sideways badly enough that radio & transponder are both out, being able to maybe read an underwing registration -- if it's daylight, with clear weather conditions, the aircraft is more or less directly above the observer, but no more than 2000' AGL or so -- doesn't seem like it would be a huge help.
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Old Jan 2, 2019, 12:32 pm
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Originally Posted by CZAMFlyer

I'd cheekily suggest you're not looking hard enough. But from most passengers' perspectives, underside markings are tricky to spot.
This is true with large modern airliners at major airports where boarding ramps / gangways are in use.
However, there are still many cases where stairs are still used and since boarding is usually on the port side the under-wing registration is normally visible.

Just glancing through my files of ancient aircraft flown I noticed an oddity in contradiction with my previous statements. One of the first planes I flew on, an Aer Lingus DC3, EI-ACE (Dublin to London Northolt) had the registration on the wing underside, but the "EI-" was on the starboard side and the "ACE" on the port side, all in huge 3ft tall lettering!

Originally Posted by CZAMFlyer
Fair enough, but I think the requirements to be seen visually from below are antiquated; it's not a safety enhancement, and there are plenty of formal (en route nav) and informal (flight tracker app) methods to identify the aircraft in flight without laying eyes on it. I'm not aware of a valid, modern reason for this regulation, but perhaps somebody can enlighten me.
Good point. However, there can be reasons why none of the above will work, whether by electrical-mechanical failure or intentionally. This is part of the reasons I have advocated for transponders to be hard-wired into aircraft electrical system and not to be capable of being manually switched off, by switch or by crew accessible circuit breaker.

I'm not going to draw the ire of anyone by mentioning specific flights but we can all probably visualise situations where when a transponder is deactivated and VHF comms are unresponsive a prompt airborne intercept could be aided visually by under-wing identification.

With so much of my early travels being around the Malay Peninsula on DC3s, Fokker F27s, Comet 4Cs and B707s, always boarding from the ramp stairs, the underside registration was always there. More often than not it was my only source to log the record.

Whether AC should have the registration on the wing underside is very much a matter of opinion, but I for one would feel more comfortable knowing it was there!
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Old Jan 2, 2019, 1:17 pm
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Originally Posted by TemboOne;30597781​​​​​​

Oh dear, I seem to have upset someone


You have vastly overestimated my interest in this issue and misunderstood my question. You have asked why AC doesn't do something. You cited a very small number of examples and then referred to it as "industry standard". I questioned your defintion based on some counter-examples and asked what is your positive rationale for AC doing this other than that a couple of other airlines do it.

I don't particularly care one way or another whether AC does this. I'm curious to understand why you think it matters.

I think it is just a matter of common sense that all airlines follow this practice and certainly common throughout most of the world, except possibly the US.
But why is it common sense? The aircraft's registration is already visible elsewhere (leaving aside the issue that others have raised about whether the visual identifier is even necessary).

As to Planespotters, whatever that may be, I've never heard of them!
It's a website, with lots of pictures of planes, as well as details on the ownership history of aircraft. So, if you wanted to find out what happened to AC's E90s after Boeing bought them, you could look them up on there. Or, if you were nostalgic for those fins, you could gaze longingly at photos of them.

But having been RTW a number of times and all over SE Asia on many 9Vs from DC3s to Comets, I have never once seen a civil airliner without an underside registration on the port wing.
Ignoring AC's, of course, I'm puzzled by the defintive nature of this statement, given the examples I've already cited...

Incidentally, regarding the nosewheel door identifier, you do know that's for the airline's own convenience.
Yes, but the point is that if you need to identify a plane, and the registration isn't painted under the wing and the one near the door isn't visible, there are a couple of other identifying markings already used by most airlines, including AC.

I just feel that with the extent that AC serves the world having the under-wing registration included would be prudent step.
Back to my original question... "Prudent" is easy to say in theory. It might also be prudent for AC to stock parachutes for all the customers, but it's really not needed or sensible. So what's the need for the under-wing registration?

Originally Posted by CZAMFlyer
There is no requirement that it need be near the rear door. That location just happens to be convenient, offers the space, and is aesthetically more pleasing.
I read somewhere years ago that it was required to be painted near the rear door, but I have no idea what the source was, so I will defer to your apparent knowledge of the requirements on this point.

. In Canada, AC, WS, WG all opt not to affix registration under their wings; TS does so. Je ne sais pourquoi.
All of the photos of WS 737s that I looked at showed they did have it under the port wing, although the DH4s did not.
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Old Jan 2, 2019, 2:33 pm
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Originally Posted by TemboOne
While I know that it is optional under Canadian law I'm just wondering why Air Canada aircraft do not have identification appear on wing undersides?

I do not see any other airlines with this omission but would have thought it an advisable inclusion given the number of countries AC flies to or whose airspace is routinely overflown.
You answered your own question - it isn't required under Canadian aviation regulations - and they are not the only airline or country that doesn't have this requirement.

Given that neither the airline nor the regulators think it advisable - the question is really why WOULD AC do what you'd like?
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