What % of J is revenue?

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Old Jul 11, 18, 5:07 pm
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What % of J is revenue?

Hi All,

Discussing with my boss, what do people believe is the % of J class that is Revenue generating?

What % do you think is airline staff?
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Old Jul 11, 18, 5:20 pm
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It depends how you define "revenue". If you include I class, then just look at the upgrade list for any given flight. I've certainly been in 40 seat cabins that were full except for 2-3 upgrades. I've also been in cabins that were 100% upgrades/employees.

So really, it depends on the route, date, and time.
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Old Jul 11, 18, 5:39 pm
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Unless the seat is empty, or occupied by a uniformed employee, its pretty hard for an outsider to know if a seat was actually filled by a 'revenue' passenger or not. As CanadianCow points out, there's a whole continuum of revenue passengers, ranging from someone who redeemed a reward ticket, which, with the scamcharges, almost certainly does represent revenue (in a previous post, I actually calculated in some situations that the revenue derived from such would be similar to a discount "P" ticket), to the person who paid a walk-up full-J fare for a single segment. With upgraders from higher Y fares, LMU's, various discounted J offerings, and tag-ons to mostly Int'l itineraries for which the domestic J portion is effectively heavily discounted falling somewhere inbetween.

The problem is that of yield. A J seat typically occupies, on the floorplan, roughly 2.5-3X as much space, and combined with the bags and passenger weights, scales similarly with weight. So the question thus becomes, does a J seat really yield 2.5-3X as much revenue on average?

Given shrinking J cabins, the answer to such heavily has been "no" over the past number of years. There's even a good argument to be made, one that WS has exploited, that there's really no reason for an actual J cabin, and that AC may just maintain the cabin for legacy reasons and fomentation of public prestige, not as the outcome of a sound business decision making process.
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Old Jul 11, 18, 5:59 pm
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Originally Posted by pitz View Post
Unless the seat is empty, or occupied by a uniformed employee, its pretty hard for an outsider to know if a seat was actually filled by a 'revenue' passenger or not.
Anyone in R class shows up on the list with a checkmark, so it's a lot easier to tell now than it was before.

My understanding was that employees traveling non-confirmed also show up on the list, and even deadheading crew may show up (they're confirmed, but may not get a seat assignment until the gate).

But I can assure you an employee flying standby for fun definitely shows up on the list, so it's easy to tell if they're revenue J or not.
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Old Jul 11, 18, 6:01 pm
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There was a whole discussion in the signature lounge thread trying to work out JCDZP vs other J pax.

But end of the day, it varies by routes, flight, day etc exactly as our resident cow posted above.
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Old Jul 11, 18, 7:06 pm
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Sorry, won't go hunting for the interesting-sounding discussion jc94 refers to, but a few data points from asking concierges:

1) On a midweek YUL-FCO, was told I was one of 2 "revenue J" pax - I was on a P fare.

2) On YYZ-SCL, have been waitlisted in paid-J and told no upgrades were granted, all revenue J. As a SE100K 1MM, I was the only person who cleared the paid J standby waitlist at the gate.

3) On short transborder, told there were no revenue J, all were upgrades

4) I foolishly assumed YVR-YOW would be no or very few revenue J, but told by concierges up front was "nearly full" of revenue J - largely connecting from Asia on revenue J tickets.
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Old Jul 11, 18, 7:17 pm
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On one of my occasional AC882 flights, I was the only upgraded pax. The other four J pax were revenue.
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Old Jul 11, 18, 7:25 pm
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Originally Posted by montrealer View Post
Sorry, won't go hunting for the interesting-sounding discussion jc94 refers to, but a few data points from asking concierges:

1) On a midweek YUL-FCO, was told I was one of 2 "revenue J" pax - I was on a P fare.

2) On YYZ-SCL, have been waitlisted in paid-J and told no upgrades were granted, all revenue J. As a SE100K 1MM, I was the only person who cleared the paid J standby waitlist at the gate.

3) On short transborder, told there were no revenue J, all were upgrades

4) I foolishly assumed YVR-YOW would be no or very few revenue J, but told by concierges up front was "nearly full" of revenue J - largely connecting from Asia on revenue J tickets.
I believe that your definition of revenue J and the op's definition are very different. The op seems to differentiate between a paying customer and staff, perhaps on a pass?

Deadheading pilots are, by contract, entitled to J. Deadheading FAs are not. A couple of SDs have told me that it is very rare to get J when deadheading. I don't know if the same holds true for staff on passes. However, staff are not to be upgraded until all passenger upgrades are complete.

OP, perhaps you could help by clarifying how you define revenue and non-revenue.
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Old Jul 11, 18, 8:18 pm
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Even at that, some routes are super J heavy, and at prices many of us on this board wouldn't believe.

Look at YVR to anywhere to an east hub in December!
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Old Jul 11, 18, 8:59 pm
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Agree with Cow's comments on it depending on the route. When I used to fly YYZ-GRU with a client that would spring for J, there were many times where we had to alter travel dates because the cabin was completely sold out, in some cases two weeks before the travel date. I don't believe there were too many non-revenue upgrades on those flights, not when I sometimes couldn't even buy a seat and was paying full pop. At the time, return J fares were anywhere from six to 10 grand, depending when you went and how far out you could book.

Deadheading employees remain another matter altogether...
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Old Jul 11, 18, 9:00 pm
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Originally Posted by YEG_SE4Life View Post
I believe that your definition of revenue J and the op's definition are very different. The op seems to differentiate between a paying customer and staff, perhaps on a pass?

Deadheading pilots are, by contract, entitled to J. Deadheading FAs are not. A couple of SDs have told me that it is very rare to get J when deadheading. I don't know if the same holds true for staff on passes. However, staff are not to be upgraded until all passenger upgrades are complete.

OP, perhaps you could help by clarifying how you define revenue and non-revenue.

Deadheading Mainline Captains are entitled to J -- The others get it when space available. The other thing to note is that the staff do have passes (low numbers) that are considered J passes. Those still need to be after PAX but again they do get to see loads ahead of time and will align their flights accordingly. Which most do anyway since load factors these days mean they need to fly when the lower number of the regular public are flying.
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