Air Canada among four major airlines who quietly changed their references to Taiwan
May 17, 2018, 5:28 pm
#46
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US airlines have been serving Cuba for quite some time now, and a lot of Canadian businesses have done business in Cuba for years without regard to the old embargo. Air Canada has been flying vacation trips to Cuba for years without any impact to its US business, even when the embargo was in full swing.
Remember China needs Canada more than the other way around - Canada can sell its oil and resources to other customers, China cannot grow enough food to feed its population and Canada can easily cut off food exports to China and sell them elsewhere, just like the USA will do assuming the trade war really gets going. You can never be secure relying on one customer - this is one of the most basic rules of business, but has been violated for decades by countless companies and governments who thought they could enrich themselves through investment in China, but instead the opposite happened. This is as good a time as any to cut the cord and move on.
Air Canada is being decimated on social media over this decision, and almost none of the comments are in favor of the change, but almost universally deriding it.
Remember China needs Canada more than the other way around - Canada can sell its oil and resources to other customers, China cannot grow enough food to feed its population and Canada can easily cut off food exports to China and sell them elsewhere, just like the USA will do assuming the trade war really gets going. You can never be secure relying on one customer - this is one of the most basic rules of business, but has been violated for decades by countless companies and governments who thought they could enrich themselves through investment in China, but instead the opposite happened. This is as good a time as any to cut the cord and move on.
Air Canada is being decimated on social media over this decision, and almost none of the comments are in favor of the change, but almost universally deriding it.
China is flexing its muscle. i doubt AC or anyone else would have complied with a similar request from a smaller country.
https://www.canada-usblog.com/2017/1...-measures-act/
May 18, 2018, 8:22 am
#47
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https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3433979
Thousands sign online petition to protest Air Canada's erroneous Taiwan listing
Thousands sign online petition to protest Air Canada's erroneous Taiwan listing
May 18, 2018, 9:31 am
#48
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The reality is, Canada, the US, almost all the countries around the world save a few handfuls, and the UN, recognize Beijing as the sole legitimate "China", which includes Taiwan. They do not recognize Taiwan or the Republic of China as a country. This is why there is no Canadian embassy in Taiwan, or a Taiwanese embassy in Canada. The current separatist government in Taipei and other hardliners cry foul over this reality as they continue to pursue their independence agenda. Note Beijing never pursued these seemingly small things back when a friendlier government was in power in Taipei. Everything soured when the current administration was sworn in and tore away past gains to warm ties across the strait.
May 18, 2018, 9:50 am
#49
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The reality is, Canada, the US, almost all the countries around the world save a few handfuls, and the UN, recognize Beijing as the sole legitimate "China", which includes Taiwan. They do not recognize Taiwan or the Republic of China as a country. This is why there is no Canadian embassy in Taiwan, or a Taiwanese embassy in Canada. The current separatist government in Taipei and other hardliners cry foul over this reality as they continue to pursue their independence agenda. Note Beijing never pursued these seemingly small things back when a friendlier government was in power in Taipei. Everything soured when the current administration was sworn in and tore away past gains to warm ties across the strait.
If you go back to the document from the Kissinger/Nixon era, what it actually says is that "the US acknowledges that China's position is" etc. In which China interprets "acknowledges" incorrectly as "recognizes."
One needs to look at this in the context whereby the Kuomintang ROC, with US support, claimed (rather ridiculously) to legitimately b the government of the whole China. I seem to recall that the agreement also included some wording whereby both the PRC and the ROC recognized that there is only one China. OTOH a majority of the Taiwan population never really considered that Taiwan was really part of China. So eventually, after the US recognized China, the government in Taiwan moved toward admitting the reality whereby they are the government of Taiwan. They missed the chance of changing their name at a time where China would have swallowed it, In the meantime China became more vocal, trade between Taiwan and China grew, and changing the name wouuld have become a major provocation.
Calling the current goverment in Taiwan "separatist" and "radical" sounds quite excessive. Such a statement seems to be colored by a rather hardline specific viewpoint within the current Taiwanese political context, rahter than an attempt of an objective analysis of the current situation and the historical context. But then, as often, history tends to be the hostage of politics.
May 18, 2018, 9:51 am
#50
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The reality is, Canada, the US, almost all the countries around the world save a few handfuls, and the UN, recognize Beijing as the sole legitimate "China", which includes Taiwan. They do not recognize Taiwan or the Republic of China as a country. This is why there is no Canadian embassy in Taiwan, or a Taiwanese embassy in Canada. The current separatist government in Taipei and other hardliners cry foul over this reality as they continue to pursue their independence agenda. Note Beijing never pursued these seemingly small things back when a friendlier government was in power in Taipei. Everything soured when the current administration was sworn in and tore away past gains to warm ties across the strait.
Canada, the US, and most countries do recognize PRC as the legitimate government of China, but do NOT recognize PRC's sovereignty claim of Taiwan. Most countries "acknowledge", "take note", "understand and respect" China's claims. But in diplomat speak, it's a polite way to say they do NOT agree with China's claim. Big difference to understand. The problem was when Taiwan was under the brutal dictatorial Chiang's rule, they refused to be recognized as Taiwan together with China, thus leading to the diplomatic isolation of Taiwan these days. But countries still do set up trade offices with almost full power to functionas embassies and consulates. In most of those trade offices you can apply for entry visas to Taiwan, which is very different than entry visa to China. For travelers this is very important, an entry visa to China does not mean you can enter Taiwan, which unfortunately Air Canada's changed listing can mislead people.
It's also incorrect to call Taiwan's now democratically elected government as "separatist", because unlike Quebec (some people erroneously made comparison to), PRChina does not exercise jurisdiction of Taiwan, while Quebec is part of Canada and visa entry to Canada includes entry to Quebec. Quebec has separatists, but Taiwan is already separate from PRChina. There is no issue of separation or independence. Taiwan is independent from PRChina. Holders of Canadian passport does not need entry visa to Taiwan, but will need visa to enter China. For countries needing visa to enter Taiwan, they apply at Taiwan's embassies/consulates, or trade offices, not China's embassies/consulates.
May 18, 2018, 10:05 am
#51
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That is what China wants to believe, and China's propaganda has been quite successful in convincing people of it. But it's not quite correct.
If you go back to the document from the Kissinger/Nixon era, what it actually says is that "the US acknowledges that China's position is" etc. In which China interprets "acknowledges" incorrectly as "recognizes."
One needs to look at this in the context whereby the Kuomintang ROC, with US support, claimed (rather ridiculously) to legitimately b the government of the whole China. I seem to recall that the agreement also included some wording whereby both the PRC and the ROC recognized that there is only one China. OTOH a majority of the Taiwan population never really considered that Taiwan was really part of China. So eventually, after the US recognized China, the government in Taiwan moved toward admitting the reality whereby they are the government of Taiwan. They missed the chance of changing their name at a time where China would have swallowed it, In the meantime China became more vocal, trade between Taiwan and China grew, and changing the name wouuld have become a major provocation.
Calling the current goverment in Taiwan "separatist" and "radical" sounds quite excessive. Such a statement seems to be colored by a rather hardline specific viewpoint within the current Taiwanese political context, rahter than an attempt of an objective analysis of the current situation and the historical context. But then, as often, history tends to be the hostage of politics.
If you go back to the document from the Kissinger/Nixon era, what it actually says is that "the US acknowledges that China's position is" etc. In which China interprets "acknowledges" incorrectly as "recognizes."
One needs to look at this in the context whereby the Kuomintang ROC, with US support, claimed (rather ridiculously) to legitimately b the government of the whole China. I seem to recall that the agreement also included some wording whereby both the PRC and the ROC recognized that there is only one China. OTOH a majority of the Taiwan population never really considered that Taiwan was really part of China. So eventually, after the US recognized China, the government in Taiwan moved toward admitting the reality whereby they are the government of Taiwan. They missed the chance of changing their name at a time where China would have swallowed it, In the meantime China became more vocal, trade between Taiwan and China grew, and changing the name wouuld have become a major provocation.
Calling the current goverment in Taiwan "separatist" and "radical" sounds quite excessive. Such a statement seems to be colored by a rather hardline specific viewpoint within the current Taiwanese political context, rahter than an attempt of an objective analysis of the current situation and the historical context. But then, as often, history tends to be the hostage of politics.
May 18, 2018, 10:08 am
#52
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Totally opposite.
Canada, the US, and most countries do recognize PRC as the legitimate government of China, but do NOT recognize PRC's sovereignty claim of Taiwan. Most countries "acknowledge", "take note", "understand and respect" China's claims. But in diplomat speak, it's a polite way to say they do NOT agree with China's claim. Big difference to understand. The problem was when Taiwan was under the brutal dictatorial Chiang's rule, they refused to be recognized as Taiwan together with China, thus leading to the diplomatic isolation of Taiwan these days. But countries still do set up trade offices with almost full power to functionas embassies and consulates. In most of those trade offices you can apply for entry visas to Taiwan, which is very different than entry visa to China. For travelers this is very important, an entry visa to China does not mean you can enter Taiwan, which unfortunately Air Canada's changed listing can mislead people.
It's also incorrect to call Taiwan's now democratically elected government as "separatist", because unlike Quebec (some people erroneously made comparison to), PRChina does not exercise jurisdiction of Taiwan, while Quebec is part of Canada and visa entry to Canada includes entry to Quebec. Quebec has separatists, but Taiwan is already separate from PRChina. There is no issue of separation or independence. Taiwan is independent from PRChina. Holders of Canadian passport does not need entry visa to Taiwan, but will need visa to enter China. For countries needing visa to enter Taiwan, they apply at Taiwan's embassies/consulates, or trade offices, not China's embassies/consulates.
Canada, the US, and most countries do recognize PRC as the legitimate government of China, but do NOT recognize PRC's sovereignty claim of Taiwan. Most countries "acknowledge", "take note", "understand and respect" China's claims. But in diplomat speak, it's a polite way to say they do NOT agree with China's claim. Big difference to understand. The problem was when Taiwan was under the brutal dictatorial Chiang's rule, they refused to be recognized as Taiwan together with China, thus leading to the diplomatic isolation of Taiwan these days. But countries still do set up trade offices with almost full power to functionas embassies and consulates. In most of those trade offices you can apply for entry visas to Taiwan, which is very different than entry visa to China. For travelers this is very important, an entry visa to China does not mean you can enter Taiwan, which unfortunately Air Canada's changed listing can mislead people.
It's also incorrect to call Taiwan's now democratically elected government as "separatist", because unlike Quebec (some people erroneously made comparison to), PRChina does not exercise jurisdiction of Taiwan, while Quebec is part of Canada and visa entry to Canada includes entry to Quebec. Quebec has separatists, but Taiwan is already separate from PRChina. There is no issue of separation or independence. Taiwan is independent from PRChina. Holders of Canadian passport does not need entry visa to Taiwan, but will need visa to enter China. For countries needing visa to enter Taiwan, they apply at Taiwan's embassies/consulates, or trade offices, not China's embassies/consulates.
This issue is quite complex to be fair and I def don't think it comes down to T is a country or not.
Last edited by Jumper Jack; May 18, 2018 at 10:52 am
May 18, 2018, 10:16 am
#53
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Actually what I wrote is arguably not black and white. But whether you like it or not (which is another story) it is actually factual. That I am not particularly involved hence affected emotionally perhaps helps retaining a dispassionate view?
But admittedly there will be people unable to recognize a factual description. Probably because it does not match their wishful thinking. AKA as Chinese propaganda, which alas seems often to be quite effective with their own citizen. As nationalist rhetorics often is, just look south of the border...
But admittedly there will be people unable to recognize a factual description. Probably because it does not match their wishful thinking. AKA as Chinese propaganda, which alas seems often to be quite effective with their own citizen. As nationalist rhetorics often is, just look south of the border...
May 18, 2018, 10:39 am
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Actually what I wrote is arguably not black and white. But whether you like it or not (which is another story) it is actually factual. That I am not particularly involved hence affected emotionally perhaps helps retaining a dispassionate view?
But admittedly there will be people unable to recognize a factual description. Probably because it does not match their wishful thinking. AKA as Chinese propaganda, which alas seems often to be quite effective with their own citizen. As nationalist rhetorics often is, just look south of the border...
But admittedly there will be people unable to recognize a factual description. Probably because it does not match their wishful thinking. AKA as Chinese propaganda, which alas seems often to be quite effective with their own citizen. As nationalist rhetorics often is, just look south of the border...
The 1992 agreement is not propaganda. And let me be clear that the poll again and again shown people in that region prefers to maintain status quo. Which is why the 92 agreement still holds. Youth holds a different view is a direct result of propaganda as well. (We often labels things propaganda when we don't agree with it)
Last edited by Jumper Jack; May 18, 2018 at 10:47 am
May 18, 2018, 10:46 am
#55
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Though I am very glad we are able to have a calm and rational discussion over this matter so far. We can agree to disagree but it's heathy to have debates on matter such as this. I hope very much the region will be peaceful and people on both ends of strait will live long and prosper.
May 18, 2018, 10:57 am
#56
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Same with HKG and Macau in your case, so the argument really does not hold. Unless you wanna say HKG is also not part of China... which would be sad because pretty sure every country on this planet would disagree with you. I am pretty sure ROC does not have embassy in 90 percent plus of countries on this planet because guess what, 90 percent of the world government do not recognize it as a country.
Quiet different for Taiwan. There isn't any international treaty to "return" Taiwan to China now or in the future. Today Taiwan is a vibrant democracy, with its own military, people, territory, etc., and elects its own president. PRChina has no current jurisdiction, not SAR, and definitely no future jurisdiction over Taiwan The vast majority of people in Taiwan have no desire to be ruled by authoritarian Communist China, understandably. Taiwan authorities certainly do not agree with Air Canada's action. So it's also not true that Air Canada complies with the rules of all jurisdictions.
From yesterday's Globe & Mail:
By Prof. Scott Simon, Ottawa
Re Air Canada Cedes To Beijing Over Taipei Relisting (Report on Business, May 16): China threw the monkey’s wrench into international aviation by requiring airlines to designate Taiwan as part of China.Even if every airline changed its website, this would not change the reality that Taiwan is not part of China. Air Canada still has to deal with two national aviation authorities and comply with laws by two legislatures. Canadian travellers still need a visa to enter China, yet enjoy reciprocal visa-waiver privileges with Taiwan.Air Canada said its policy is to comply with legal requirements in all jurisdictions. Although this sounds reasonable, it would be impossible if Taiwan similarly required Air Canada to list Taipei under Taiwan. As a democracy, Taiwan is no more likely than Canada to micro-manage corporate or private website content. By submitting to China’s demands, we allow China to extend Chinese censorship laws to Canada. Is this the Canada we want?
and by Michael Stainton, Toronto:
In its risible defense of corporate kowtowing to the demands of the Communist Party of China, Air Canada has claimed “Air Canada’s policy [is] to comply with all requirements in all worldwide jurisdictions to which we fly.” Three “jurisdictions” are involved here:Canada, which for 40 years had had a consistent policy of neither challenging nor endorsing the China’s claims on Taiwan. So Air Canada is not complying with Canadian requirements;Taiwan, which has been a separate and independent “jurisdiction” from China for 60 years, and with which Air Canada negotiated in initiating flights to Taiwan; The Peoples Republic of China, which which has no authority over what happens in Taiwan.China has demanded that Air Canada subscribe to a political fiction (a.k.a. Orwellian nonsense) not as a legal requirement, but as a political threat that has no legal basis in international law.
Last edited by yscleo; May 18, 2018 at 12:51 pm Reason: put space, for easier reading
May 18, 2018, 11:14 am
#57
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In 1992, two governmenta met and agreed upon three points. One particular point is the one China, different interpretation.
The 1992 agreement is not propaganda. And let me be clear that the poll again and again shown people in that region prefers to maintain status quo. Which is why the 92 agreement still holds. Youth holds a different view is a direct result of propaganda as well. (We often labels things propaganda when we don't agree with it)
The 1992 agreement is not propaganda. And let me be clear that the poll again and again shown people in that region prefers to maintain status quo. Which is why the 92 agreement still holds. Youth holds a different view is a direct result of propaganda as well. (We often labels things propaganda when we don't agree with it)
Actually the communique is from 1972. It includes the US view:
The U.S. side declared: The United States acknowledges that all Chinese on either side of the Taiwan Strait maintain there is but one China and that Taiwan is a part of China. The United States Government does not challenge that position. It reaffirms its interest in a peaceful settlement of the Taiwan question by the Chinese themselves. With this prospect in mind, it affirms the ultimate objective of the withdrawal of all U.S. forces and military installations from Taiwan.
Incidentally, some not so well-known facts: Before the Cairo meeting of 1943, the Chinese commnist Party considered the matters of Taiwan to be the concern of the communist party of Taiwan. After the Cairo meeting, their view changed overnight. Also there is pre-WWII Chinese communist party literature in which Fukienese (hence all Minnan speakers including in Taiwan) are not Han but a minority....
(I do have some scholarly references on both.)
May 18, 2018, 11:27 am
#58
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The reality is, Canada, the US, almost all the countries around the world save a few handfuls, and the UN, recognize Beijing as the sole legitimate "China", which includes Taiwan. They do not recognize Taiwan or the Republic of China as a country. This is why there is no Canadian embassy in Taiwan, or a Taiwanese embassy in Canada. The current separatist government in Taipei and other hardliners cry foul over this reality as they continue to pursue their independence agenda. Note Beijing never pursued these seemingly small things back when a friendlier government was in power in Taipei. Everything soured when the current administration was sworn in and tore away past gains to warm ties across the strait.
Every country in the world knows Taiwan is independent and treats it that way behind closed doors - the goal is to stop this nonsense from the mainland commies and for the international community to embrace the reality they already know and make it official. Air Canada violated Canadian government policy which is already noted upthread, and went across the line for which they should be held responsible and the Canadian government should have already ordered them to undo the change. Air Canada has enough problems with service and product and doesn't need the additional negative publicity to add to their already lengthly list of problems. What is China going to do, suspend their operating rights in China? So what. Canada will (or should, if Trudeau grows a set) block Chinese airlines from flying to Canada. Who really loses more? Or loses anything given that Air Canada can quickly, like within hours, codeshare on ANA and United to keep their customers flying to/from China via NRT/SFO/ORD/IAD/EWR.
As far as Hong Kong and Macau, they will go down as one of the most horrific post-colonial travesties in history - being handed back to a brutal, repressive fascist dictatorship without any input, participation or opinion from the people who actually lived there and should have been offered a referendum to decide for themselves if they wanted to remain with Britain, join China or seek independence. I have publicly supported and financially gifted the umbrella movement in Hong Kong and support whatever actions the people of Hong Kong take to establish their independence from brutality and repression, which should be a goal that Canada loudly supports.
May 18, 2018, 1:05 pm
#59
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Wading through this history lesson, what is the official stance from "Canada"?
And, does it make sense to say Air "Canada" should fall in line with "Canada"? The name "EastJet" is available in Canada; I won't even bother with a NUANS search to verify this...
And, does it make sense to say Air "Canada" should fall in line with "Canada"? The name "EastJet" is available in Canada; I won't even bother with a NUANS search to verify this...
May 18, 2018, 7:33 pm
#60
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I hate to burst your bubble, but Taiwan is already independent, and has been for decades. While most countries lack an embassy, that is only a formality of naming, because most countries maintain an economic or other form of office that serves the identical purpose of an embassy without calling it that - just like Burger King has the Big King which is a Big Mac, but isn't calling it a Big Mac. It's still a Big Mac. Calling the Taiwanese government separatist at this point is no different than calling the Canadian and US governments separatists given they "should" still be part of the British Empire, right? Except they're already independent from Great Britain, and from each other. When you want to visit the USA, you go the economic interests office in Taipei to apply for a visa - but wait - if you're Taiwanese with a Taiwanese passport (another sign of independence), the US government does not require you to have a visitor visa, you are visa-exempt, but if you are holding a PRC passport, you need a visa. How could this be?? A mistake? Or an obvious backdoor recognition of Taiwanese sovereignty and independence.
Every country in the world knows Taiwan is independent and treats it that way behind closed doors - the goal is to stop this nonsense from the mainland commies and for the international community to embrace the reality they already know and make it official. Air Canada violated Canadian government policy which is already noted upthread, and went across the line for which they should be held responsible and the Canadian government should have already ordered them to undo the change. Air Canada has enough problems with service and product and doesn't need the additional negative publicity to add to their already lengthly list of problems. What is China going to do, suspend their operating rights in China? So what. Canada will (or should, if Trudeau grows a set) block Chinese airlines from flying to Canada. Who really loses more? Or loses anything given that Air Canada can quickly, like within hours, codeshare on ANA and United to keep their customers flying to/from China via NRT/SFO/ORD/IAD/EWR.
As far as Hong Kong and Macau, they will go down as one of the most horrific post-colonial travesties in history - being handed back to a brutal, repressive fascist dictatorship without any input, participation or opinion from the people who actually lived there and should have been offered a referendum to decide for themselves if they wanted to remain with Britain, join China or seek independence. I have publicly supported and financially gifted the umbrella movement in Hong Kong and support whatever actions the people of Hong Kong take to establish their independence from brutality and repression, which should be a goal that Canada loudly supports.
Every country in the world knows Taiwan is independent and treats it that way behind closed doors - the goal is to stop this nonsense from the mainland commies and for the international community to embrace the reality they already know and make it official. Air Canada violated Canadian government policy which is already noted upthread, and went across the line for which they should be held responsible and the Canadian government should have already ordered them to undo the change. Air Canada has enough problems with service and product and doesn't need the additional negative publicity to add to their already lengthly list of problems. What is China going to do, suspend their operating rights in China? So what. Canada will (or should, if Trudeau grows a set) block Chinese airlines from flying to Canada. Who really loses more? Or loses anything given that Air Canada can quickly, like within hours, codeshare on ANA and United to keep their customers flying to/from China via NRT/SFO/ORD/IAD/EWR.
As far as Hong Kong and Macau, they will go down as one of the most horrific post-colonial travesties in history - being handed back to a brutal, repressive fascist dictatorship without any input, participation or opinion from the people who actually lived there and should have been offered a referendum to decide for themselves if they wanted to remain with Britain, join China or seek independence. I have publicly supported and financially gifted the umbrella movement in Hong Kong and support whatever actions the people of Hong Kong take to establish their independence from brutality and repression, which should be a goal that Canada loudly supports.
What China is requesting is in-line with Canada's foreign policy. A lot of people, including the current government in Taipei, twists these facts and thinks their self-autonomous operation is the same as independence because Beijing doesn't chase after them or send missiles across the strait to put an end to this.