Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Airlines and Mileage Programs > Air Canada | Aeroplan
Reload this Page >

AC faces new competition from WestJet's new lie-flat 787 business class

AC faces new competition from WestJet's new lie-flat 787 business class

Closed Thread

Old May 10, 18, 11:24 am
  #76  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ontario, CAN
Posts: 5,812
WS is to AC as the jackal is to the lion on the Africa plains. When the jackal steps out of his lane, the lion has to get up and waste energy chasing it off.

Some WS expectations around here are funny. Westjet had the opp to introduce true NA J, they opted for blocking a middle seat. Ample opps to join an alliance, not in their interests. They could work through growing pains to establish themselves in Tier 1, 2 cities, they’d prefer to augment HNL, LAS, and CUN.

Wake me whey they get into an alliance. Wake me when they’re more than a fringe, marginal player in Chicago, SF, LA, NYC.

WS should have stuck with their roots or gone all in
They’ve done neither.
YOWCDNFF likes this.
CloudsBelow is offline  
Old May 10, 18, 11:34 am
  #77  
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: YYZ
Programs: FOTSG Tangerine Ex E35k (AC)
Posts: 5,427
Originally Posted by Clipper801 View Post
I wonder if WS knows how to run a "premium" service and adjusting the mentality of its staff. PLUS is a total flop. Other than the ancient 767, none of WS current North American fleet has a premium cabin. There is no priority check-in and priority baggage handling. So you bring a J passengers from overseas to one of the hubs, unless that J passenger terminates there, you feed that passenger to PLUS? Will YYZ T3 where WS operates change the international transfer process similar to T1 where AC is located?
Very ambitious plan but not sure how WS is going to execute it. Their brand new 7M8 does not have real North American standard J seats.
Mixed fare flights aren't really new especially with codeshares. I'm assuming they will consider opening some priority lanes although isn't it pretty much self-service these days with WS anyway? Priority baggage should be easy to enough to setup, and if they balls up implementation well so do most airlines - like AC

It all boils down to price. Especially if you're flying LGW YYZ YVR and getting J for the TATL and Plus for the last 4 hours. How clear they make it that's what your buying will be crucial too.

WS has been growing amazingly well for about 15 years (?) now? I know people who made a huge profit within just the first few years on shares. I have far more faith in WS's ability to implement this than I do AC's ability to respond.
jc94 is offline  
Old May 10, 18, 1:56 pm
  #78  
Original Member
 
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 6,158
Originally Posted by CloudsBelow View Post
WS is to AC as the jackal is to the lion on the Africa plains. When the jackal steps out of his lane, the lion has to get up and waste energy chasing it off.

Some WS expectations around here are funny. Westjet had the opp to introduce true NA J, they opted for blocking a middle seat. Ample opps to join an alliance, not in their interests. They could work through growing pains to establish themselves in Tier 1, 2 cities, they’d prefer to augment HNL, LAS, and CUN.

Wake me whey they get into an alliance. Wake me when they’re more than a fringe, marginal player in Chicago, SF, LA, NYC.

WS should have stuck with their roots or gone all in
They’ve done neither.
So WestJet will be out of business by Friday, then?
blue2002 likes this.
KenHamer is offline  
Old May 10, 18, 4:18 pm
  #79  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,055
If WS deploys the 787 from PEK to YYC for example, one flies in J to YYC and will be happy to be put in PLUS for the onward connecting flight, e.g. to YYZ and YUL?

WS had an opportunity to install proper North American standard J seats in its brand new 7M8 but chose not to do so.
Clipper801 is offline  
Old May 10, 18, 4:59 pm
  #80  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend and Moderator: Air Canada Aeroplan & Manufactured Spending
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: YEG
Posts: 48,566
Exclamation

Folks, let's make this thread more about AC and its reaction, real or imagined, to this WS aircraft and less about all things WS related. Those wishing to discuss this WS aircraft further are invited to do so in the WS forum.

Regards,

tcook052
AC forum Mod.
tcook052 is offline  
Old May 10, 18, 8:32 pm
  #81  
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: YYC
Programs: AC SE 1MM, Marriott Ambassador
Posts: 3,029
Originally Posted by Clipper801 View Post
If WS deploys the 787 from PEK to YYC for example, one flies in J to YYC and will be happy to be put in PLUS for the onward connecting flight, e.g. to YYZ and YUL?

WS had an opportunity to install proper North American standard J seats in its brand new 7M8 but chose not to do so.
AC had a chance to actually buy real planes instead of the flying horror show 7M8. They chose not to do so. Or put another way, they had a chance to install an actual cabin with actual washrooms instead of the god awful disaster that they chose. They not to do so. They chose a crap product and profit over their customers. Lets not delude ourselves, there is no other equation at work. Let me say it again: AC made exactly the same awful choice that you say WS did. Exactly the same one.

And if one flies AC to Europe, it is a total crap shoot if one gets a "J" seat (exactly equal to WS +) if your final destination isn't one that AC serves. You may very well be seated in economy (the dreaded "mixed cabin" bs). So lets not pretend that AC is a whole lot better here. If I was to fly WS to PEK or HKG and have to fly E+ or E onward, that is likely no better or worse than I would do on AC. If I wanted to ask: "how will AC react?" I would hope that part of their response would be to: a) sell me a seat that doesn't have a 10% chance of deflating (I like sleep, I don't like Russian roulette); and b) if they sell me a J ticket, make it a J ticket, not a mixed cabin ticket. That would be a positive start. Then maybe they can worry about how to make interline checkin actually work from their app (or the partner airline's app), things like not taking 2 1/2 hours to serve dinner, etc. I like AC, generally, I do. But lets not pretend they are so awesome that WS doesn't have a chance. Because that is just pure nonsense. If WS does this even half right, and refrains from making any big, deal breaking mistakes, AC should be concerned.
ridefar is online now  
Old May 10, 18, 8:49 pm
  #82  
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Programs: AC SE
Posts: 2,370
Originally Posted by ridefar View Post
AC had a chance to actually buy real planes instead of the flying horror show 7M8. They chose not to do so. Or put another way, they had a chance to install an actual cabin with actual washrooms instead of the god awful disaster that they chose. They not to do so. They chose a crap product and profit over their customers. Lets not delude ourselves, there is no other equation at work. Let me say it again: AC made exactly the same awful choice that you say WS did. Exactly the same one.
Not having flown on the 7M8 yet, I'm curious to know what's so bad about it?
capedreamer is online now  
Old May 10, 18, 9:03 pm
  #83  
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Vancouver
Programs: Aeroplan, Mileage Plus, SPG Gold, AMEX Plat
Posts: 1,241
Originally Posted by capedreamer View Post
Not having flown on the 7M8 yet, I'm curious to know what's so bad about it?
For one it is the same aircraft as WS. With many of the same "features".

Its cramp, they installed washrooms that are tight. Children would be ok with these, adults would find them difficult.

Others have mentioned the problem of not having a true "Business Class" for connecting passengers. Personally I find AC has the same problem. How many regional flights feeding Vancouver, Calgary and Toronto are on Q400 aircraft.

AC and WS are moving close and close to offering the same product.
tcook052 and jc94 like this.
Fiordland is offline  
Old May 11, 18, 12:39 am
  #84  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: YVR
Programs: AC E75K 2MM former 14-year SE; UA MP Premier Silver; Marriott Bonvoy Lifetime Titanium Elite
Posts: 27,861
Originally Posted by capedreamer View Post
Not having flown on the 7M8 yet, I'm curious to know what's so bad about it?
A plethora of answers and comments related to your inquiry can be found here... happy reading

Air Canada Selects Boeing 737 MAX to Renew Mainline Narrowbody Fleet
capedreamer likes this.
yyznomad is offline  
Old May 11, 18, 8:39 am
  #85  
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: I'm From Here
Programs: AC*SE & MM/*Wood Gold/HHonors Diamond/Marriott Silver/AirMiles Gold
Posts: 3,806
Originally Posted by capedreamer View Post
Not having flown on the 7M8 yet, I'm curious to know what's so bad about it?
Oh my sweet summer child

Remember as kids they had blocks with different shapes and you had put the right shape in the right hole ?

Well imagine, you are rectangle and you need to fit into the square hole...for anywhere from 1 to 8 hours .
Queen B and Jumper Jack like this.
lcohen999 is online now  
Old May 11, 18, 8:52 am
  #86  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,055
Originally Posted by jc94 View Post
Mixed fare flights aren't really new especially with codeshares. I'm assuming they will consider opening some priority lanes although isn't it pretty much self-service these days with WS anyway? Priority baggage should be easy to enough to setup, and if they balls up implementation well so do most airlines - like AC

It all boils down to price. Especially if you're flying LGW YYZ YVR and getting J for the TATL and Plus for the last 4 hours. How clear they make it that's what your buying will be crucial too.

WS has been growing amazingly well for about 15 years (?) now? I know people who made a huge profit within just the first few years on shares. I have far more faith in WS's ability to implement this than I do AC's ability to respond.
No, I was not commenting that AC's hardware and software are "superior" to WS.
I was commenting that WS had an excellent opportunity to introduce an alternative premium service to the North American air travel market starting from "square one", and leveraged on its previously well perceived economy class service, yet WS has failed miserably.
When WS ordered the new 7M8, they had every opportunity to create a premium cabin but they didn't.
PLUS was boasted as a premium economy product and yet it's not. The only "premium" about PLUS is the price.
Alliance membership aside, I recently found out that it's WS Reward has many subset accounts. The rebate that one gets from a RBC WS MasterCard is placed in a different sub-account than any monetary compensation from WS. So it basically precludes one from using both on a ticket as only 2 forms of payment would be accepted. I received a token goodwill credit from WS due to an IRROP extensive delay from an earlier flight. I was initially quite impressed with WS to proactively offer a future travel voucher due to the delay until I found out that I could not combine that goodwill credit with my RBC WS MC $ to purchase a ticket! And on that delayed flight, AC's On My Way would have blown WS mediocre to lousy customer service away in million pieces.
Clipper801 is offline  
Old May 11, 18, 9:05 am
  #87  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: YYC
Posts: 21,407
Originally Posted by Clipper801 View Post
No, I was not commenting that AC's hardware and software are "superior" to WS.
I was commenting that WS had an excellent opportunity to introduce an alternative premium service to the North American air travel market starting from "square one", and leveraged on its previously well perceived economy class service, yet WS has failed miserably.
When WS ordered the new 7M8, they had every opportunity to create a premium cabin but they didn't.
I would agree that their plans are confusing when coming to the high end segment. Either they want to go head on and compete with AC, which the 787 configuration seems to indicate. Or they don't which the 7M8 config indicates. So-called "analysts" are pointing this out too.

AC has had a difficult time trying to be a full service and a low cost at the same time. Struggling for many years mainly at the high end. But they now seem to have gone somewhat in the right direction. Not clear to me that WS is ready to deal with a similar situation. With the 787 pointing in one direction, the 7M8 in the other: retaining their "equalitarian" small town Alberta roots. Mind you, they might have a sense that they cannot afford losing that image.

What happened with the change at the top yet no apparent change of strategy is also a bit puzzling.
Stranger is online now  
Old May 11, 18, 11:08 am
  #88  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend and Moderator: Air Canada Aeroplan & Manufactured Spending
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: YEG
Posts: 48,566
Exclamation

Apparently I was unclear in my earlier request for more AC focused discussion and less WS topics so have deleted a number of posts. If the conversation cannot return more to being about AC and it's reaction to increased long-haul competition from WS then the thread can be closed.

tcook052
AC forum Mod.

Last edited by tcook052; May 11, 18 at 11:14 am
tcook052 is offline  
Old May 11, 18, 12:19 pm
  #89  
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: YYZ
Programs: FOTSG Tangerine Ex E35k (AC)
Posts: 5,427
WS will do what they will do; as pointed out that's all for another thread and until it's actually released and in use by paying pax there's no way to realistically compare it to AC.

AC will do one of four things to respond, in order of likelihood.

1) Nothing (most likely). Unless their J loads drop significantly, they won't care. Same as with other routes where they have competition.
2) Work on improving their service and driving this as the marketing point to ensure they don't suffer a reduction in J loads.
3) Lower prices to be competitive. See point 1.
4) While unlikely - they will start to take things away from J (like inflated seats) to save costs maybe in concert albeit unlikely with better pricing.

There could be others.

And without getting too offtrack here, AC also has the advantage of a somewhat decent FFP that is seen by many as superior to what WS offers. If I was a AC SEMM with no copay on TATL routes and was flying on Lat FPs ... I doubt I'd move to WS. I'm sure AC knows (well maybe, it requires someone to pull data) how much of their J load is from loyal customers in these sort of situations.
jc94 is offline  
Old May 11, 18, 12:45 pm
  #90  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: YVR
Programs: Bottom feeder Star Gold
Posts: 2,294
Originally Posted by Adam Smith
Like there were no hiccups introducing LGW service a couple years back? They seem to have figured it out, but the delays, cancellations and many millions of EU261 compensation they paid out sure constituted some hiccups on that. The 787s should have a lot fewer mechanical issues given they'll be new, but if WS is truly going to send these things to Asia, that's going to be another level of difficulty above sending 763s to LGW.
Adam, you're arguing a point I didn't make. I stated I believe WS will suffer no hiccups on offering a new class of service to compete with AC. Your stated issues around WestJet's 767 introduction had little to do with where they were flying them or how their cabin was configured; it had to do with mechanical and dispatch reliability issues on an older aircraft type. Given that WS and AC will likely both be operating brand new 789s on any head-to-head routes, we can anticipate shelving your concerns.

I also don't understand how flying a new plane across the Pacific is 'another level of difficulty' over flying an old one across the Atlantic. Perhaps you could elaborate, including listing any anticipated hurdles that WestJet might face that AC and countless others haven't already solved? It may be worth remembering that WestJet has successfully introduced service to 20 countries. This ain't their first rodeo, to state it in terms a Calgarian might use.
CZAMFlyer is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread