Self-upgrading Okay for Kids?
#76
Join Date: Dec 2013
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I believe @CZAMFlyer is advocating for a compassionate response for a father and his son.
The problem is that the father did it without asking.
If I go to a restaurant and I need to pay a surcharge to get the salad buffet, and let's say I pay and eat the salad. Another customer next to me does not pay, but asks the restaurant owner if he can have something from the buffet and the answer is yes, then who am I to complain? Perhaps there are several circumstances leading to the owner's decision that I am not even aware of. But if the chap next to me goes to the buffet and starts eating without permission, that is something else.
I like Adam Smith's analogy is sneaking into a movie theater to watch a film without paying, even if the film has started already. No harm done because the seat was not occupied, right? I am sorry, but in my book that is not right. Of course if you ask staff if you can go in for free because the film has already started and they let you in, then fine.
Not completely related, but I remember one time I was on a short flight and unusually the aircraft had the lie flat beds in J and more than 75% of J seats were empty. We were delayed at the gate and expected to have to stay there for at least one hour due to bad weather at destination with all flights grounded. We were still on the ground and expected to remain there for quite a while, so I asked the SD if I could pay cash to upgrade to J, or use eupgrade credits to upgrade. I just did not want to sit in Y for a few hours at the gate waiting for departure. The SD explained to me that it was unfortunately not possible. Fine. Different situation, different flight, different staff, different passengers, etc, but if someone cannot upgrade on board while stuck at the gate despite offering to pay cash for a J seat, but someone can self-upgrade without permission mid flight? It's easy to see the issue here. As I said, if AC allowed self-upgrading without permission but refusing my offer to pay cash for an upgrade, they are free to manage their business this way, but then as a customer I would be free to fly with another airline if that was the case.
#77
Join Date: Jan 2016
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In case my feelings are lost I’ll just restate I’m with kicking the kid back to Y for all the reasons listed above.
However, what I wanted to add is that remember AC doesn’t like opupping even their SEMM members unless they have to over bumping people. So AC J would tend to have more spaces than say .. UA J where it’s often filled by GS/1k or whatever pax.
AC has made it clear J is a exclusive cabin and if you want these perks either pay or use their upgrade systems - pretty much all of which also involve at least some money these days, even if it’s just booking Flex over Tango.
So why should they allow people to sit in J just because their parent/friend/whatever is there. Aren’t airlines meant to also have a manifest of where people are sitting? Can this easily be amended mid flight?
Clearly this is FT and we almost never get universal agreement
However, what I wanted to add is that remember AC doesn’t like opupping even their SEMM members unless they have to over bumping people. So AC J would tend to have more spaces than say .. UA J where it’s often filled by GS/1k or whatever pax.
AC has made it clear J is a exclusive cabin and if you want these perks either pay or use their upgrade systems - pretty much all of which also involve at least some money these days, even if it’s just booking Flex over Tango.
So why should they allow people to sit in J just because their parent/friend/whatever is there. Aren’t airlines meant to also have a manifest of where people are sitting? Can this easily be amended mid flight?
Clearly this is FT and we almost never get universal agreement
#78
Join Date: Sep 2011
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Let's be clear here: I don't condone self-upgrading, I wouldn't do it and I wouldn't bring my kid up to the J cabin if I was there and he was in Y. And if I did I'd expect the FA/SD to politely ask him to head back to his seat. Assigned seating is a thing. I just find all the faux outrage over something that doesn't directly impact people hilarious.
Yes, I am sure one kid sitting in an empty seat next to his dad in J portents a stampede of pax from row 48 in to the J cabin.
The only self-righteousness I see in this thread is all of the RCMHHP with their panties in a knot over some kid in a J seat he didn't pay for. Like the J cabin on an AC flight is some kind of sacred place that shouldn't be violated by heathens who didn't pay. Get over yourselves people.
You and CZAMFlyer seem to think that things happen in a vacuum, but life is not that simple. While BenL's infamous cheapening comment may have lacked tact, he was saying something that had been said for a while by other airlines. DL, in particular, has been vocal for years about the fact that much of its front cabins have been filled with people who got there through complimentary upgrades (i.e. paid no premium for their premium experience). In any one case, letting a customer sit up front without paying for it (either through comp up or, as in this case, just taking the seat) teaches customers that it can be done without paying for it and they adjust their behaviour accordingly.
While CZAM used the term "slippery slope" in a pejorative sense to imply that this assumption was fallacious, but the airline industry has real life experiences that bear it out and has been pushing customers to move away from this model.
While CZAM used the term "slippery slope" in a pejorative sense to imply that this assumption was fallacious, but the airline industry has real life experiences that bear it out and has been pushing customers to move away from this model.
The only self-righteousness I see in this thread is all of the RCMHHP with their panties in a knot over some kid in a J seat he didn't pay for. Like the J cabin on an AC flight is some kind of sacred place that shouldn't be violated by heathens who didn't pay. Get over yourselves people.
#79
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC SEMM / HH Diamond
Posts: 3,150
No. If the father had asked the SD if his son could come up to J and the answer was yes, then fine. AC is a business and they are free to do what they think is best. Then all passengers will behave accordingly once we know that AC will allow it, sometimes, based on their judgment. If you want a guaranteed J seat you pay for it, and if not you can buy in Y and ask and take a chance the answer will be no.
The problem is that the father did it without asking.
If I go to a restaurant and I need to pay a surcharge to get the salad buffet, and let's say I pay and eat the salad. Another customer next to me does not pay, but asks the restaurant owner if he can have something from the buffet and the answer is yes, then who am I to complain? Perhaps there are several circumstances leading to the owner's decision that I am not even aware of. But if the chap next to me goes to the buffet and starts eating without permission, that is something else.
I like Adam Smith's analogy is sneaking into a movie theater to watch a film without paying, even if the film has started already. No harm done because the seat was not occupied, right? I am sorry, but in my book that is not right. Of course if you ask staff if you can go in for free because the film has already started and they let you in, then fine.
Not completely related, but I remember one time I was on a short flight and unusually the aircraft had the lie flat beds in J and more than 75% of J seats were empty. We were delayed at the gate and expected to have to stay there for at least one hour due to bad weather at destination with all flights grounded. We were still on the ground and expected to remain there for quite a while, so I asked the SD if I could pay cash to upgrade to J, or use eupgrade credits to upgrade. I just did not want to sit in Y for a few hours at the gate waiting for departure. The SD explained to me that it was unfortunately not possible. Fine. Different situation, different flight, different staff, different passengers, etc, but if someone cannot upgrade on board while stuck at the gate despite offering to pay cash for a J seat, but someone can self-upgrade without permission mid flight? It's easy to see the issue here. As I said, if AC allowed self-upgrading without permission but refusing my offer to pay cash for an upgrade, they are free to manage their business this way, but then as a customer I would be free to fly with another airline if that was the case.
The problem is that the father did it without asking.
If I go to a restaurant and I need to pay a surcharge to get the salad buffet, and let's say I pay and eat the salad. Another customer next to me does not pay, but asks the restaurant owner if he can have something from the buffet and the answer is yes, then who am I to complain? Perhaps there are several circumstances leading to the owner's decision that I am not even aware of. But if the chap next to me goes to the buffet and starts eating without permission, that is something else.
I like Adam Smith's analogy is sneaking into a movie theater to watch a film without paying, even if the film has started already. No harm done because the seat was not occupied, right? I am sorry, but in my book that is not right. Of course if you ask staff if you can go in for free because the film has already started and they let you in, then fine.
Not completely related, but I remember one time I was on a short flight and unusually the aircraft had the lie flat beds in J and more than 75% of J seats were empty. We were delayed at the gate and expected to have to stay there for at least one hour due to bad weather at destination with all flights grounded. We were still on the ground and expected to remain there for quite a while, so I asked the SD if I could pay cash to upgrade to J, or use eupgrade credits to upgrade. I just did not want to sit in Y for a few hours at the gate waiting for departure. The SD explained to me that it was unfortunately not possible. Fine. Different situation, different flight, different staff, different passengers, etc, but if someone cannot upgrade on board while stuck at the gate despite offering to pay cash for a J seat, but someone can self-upgrade without permission mid flight? It's easy to see the issue here. As I said, if AC allowed self-upgrading without permission but refusing my offer to pay cash for an upgrade, they are free to manage their business this way, but then as a customer I would be free to fly with another airline if that was the case.
#80
Join Date: Oct 2009
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If he wanted to sit beside his son, he could have gone back to Y. Surely someone in Y would have happily taken the father's seat in J if Y had been full. The kid (or rather his parents) did not pay for him to sit in J, yet he would be sitting in J. Unlike every other person who sat where they had paid to sit (in one currency or another) or were upgraded at the discretion of the airline (if there were any op-ups).
Let's be clear here: I don't condone self-upgrading, I wouldn't do it and I wouldn't bring my kid up to the J cabin if I was there and he was in Y. And if I did I'd expect the FA/SD to politely ask him to head back to his seat. Assigned seating is a thing. I just find all the faux outrage over something that doesn't directly impact people hilarious.
#82
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Paris, Geneva
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Posts: 323
[QUOTE=Low Roller;29502670][QUOTE] I'm more disturbed about the lesson that it is teaching the child. Not only did the father abandon him (and presumably whoever else was flying with him) in order to enjoy the comforts of J, but then he teaches the kid that it's ok to move up front if there are any empty seats. For those of you who use the "he's only a kid" argument, just remember that he won't be a kid forever. He will be an entitled teen in a few years and an entited adult a few years after that.
How is this twisting or inventing the facts? Seriously, that is exactly what happened. The father chose to fly in the comfort of J and made the kid slum it in Y.
I do agree with Low Roller : AC (nor any other major airlines) wouldn't let a 6yrs old kid fly alone in the back, even if the father is in the front. So the kid must have been with someone...
So, the assumption is probably correct.
And now, I'll do another assumption (and this time, just for fun). Let's assume he was with his mum. I would have loved to be there when the husband was telling his wife that he will fly in First class while she stays with the kid in the back
How is this twisting or inventing the facts? Seriously, that is exactly what happened. The father chose to fly in the comfort of J and made the kid slum it in Y.
So, the assumption is probably correct.
And now, I'll do another assumption (and this time, just for fun). Let's assume he was with his mum. I would have loved to be there when the husband was telling his wife that he will fly in First class while she stays with the kid in the back
#83
Suspended
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,808
One wonders what possible effect a well-behaved child would have on the inner sanctum of AC's opulent J. I understand the opposition to an adult companion moving forward, but to a 6yr old child?
There's rules, and there should also be latitude for discretionary judgements.
There's rules, and there should also be latitude for discretionary judgements.
Nobody who didn't buy an UG or earn one, or pay full fare, should be up in J.
#84
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: YUL
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Posts: 5,691
#85
Original Poster
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MEX
Programs: AC E75K
Posts: 4,171
This post by @Adam Smith should be memorialized in a some sort of hall of fame:
Comprehensive, clearly articulated, and unassailable in its logic.
I find it interesting that @CZAMFlyer and @RatherBeInYOW are essentially accusing @Adam Smith, @24left, myself, and many others of virtue signalling our moral absolutism and thereby being disingenuous. Meanwhile, the exact same thing could be said for them: @CZAMFlyer and @RatherBeInYOW are also virtue signalling, but in their case, the signal being sent is about their greater capacity for compassion and their indifference towards AC's mediocre J product.
Anyways, I think everything that could be said on this topic has been said. Perhaps @tcook052 could let one of @CZAMFlyer or @RatherBeInYOW have the last word and then close this thread.
I find it interesting that @CZAMFlyer and @RatherBeInYOW are essentially accusing @Adam Smith, @24left, myself, and many others of virtue signalling our moral absolutism and thereby being disingenuous. Meanwhile, the exact same thing could be said for them: @CZAMFlyer and @RatherBeInYOW are also virtue signalling, but in their case, the signal being sent is about their greater capacity for compassion and their indifference towards AC's mediocre J product.
Anyways, I think everything that could be said on this topic has been said. Perhaps @tcook052 could let one of @CZAMFlyer or @RatherBeInYOW have the last word and then close this thread.
Last edited by capedreamer; Mar 9, 2018 at 10:01 am
#86
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: YVR
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Thanks capedreamer, but I'm not jostling for the last word. These are mine, but others are welcome to follow.
I stated I don't condone adults self-upgrading, but asked the forum if it's a different scenario with a small boy sitting next to his father in an unoccupied seat after the meal had been served. Most reactions were themselves interesting, revealing and very linear. Many people used some slippery logic and all voiced a strong opinion. I believe the comment above about 'quoting poetry' was an (embarrassed?) reaction to what may have been my stinging observation: that the most trivial matters are often those most heatedly opposed.
I think that the SD did a good thing by asking the child to return to his original seat. But I would not have raised an eyebrow in protest had the kid been allowed to stay. It appears my tolerance level is in the minority amongst this crowd.
Long may they fly in blessed, non-discretionary exclusivity.
I stated I don't condone adults self-upgrading, but asked the forum if it's a different scenario with a small boy sitting next to his father in an unoccupied seat after the meal had been served. Most reactions were themselves interesting, revealing and very linear. Many people used some slippery logic and all voiced a strong opinion. I believe the comment above about 'quoting poetry' was an (embarrassed?) reaction to what may have been my stinging observation: that the most trivial matters are often those most heatedly opposed.
I think that the SD did a good thing by asking the child to return to his original seat. But I would not have raised an eyebrow in protest had the kid been allowed to stay. It appears my tolerance level is in the minority amongst this crowd.
Long may they fly in blessed, non-discretionary exclusivity.
#87
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: OGG, YYC
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Posts: 3,697
Nope, the fare collection actually started after reaching cruise altitude and it was cash only. Not suggesting this is germane to the discussion but rather just one of those interesting airline oddities from the past.