Self-upgrading Okay for Kids?

Old Mar 9, 2018, 5:37 am
  #76  
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Originally Posted by vytas315
I believe @CZAMFlyer is advocating for a compassionate response for a father and his son.
No. If the father had asked the SD if his son could come up to J and the answer was yes, then fine. AC is a business and they are free to do what they think is best. Then all passengers will behave accordingly once we know that AC will allow it, sometimes, based on their judgment. If you want a guaranteed J seat you pay for it, and if not you can buy in Y and ask and take a chance the answer will be no.

The problem is that the father did it without asking.

If I go to a restaurant and I need to pay a surcharge to get the salad buffet, and let's say I pay and eat the salad. Another customer next to me does not pay, but asks the restaurant owner if he can have something from the buffet and the answer is yes, then who am I to complain? Perhaps there are several circumstances leading to the owner's decision that I am not even aware of. But if the chap next to me goes to the buffet and starts eating without permission, that is something else.

I like Adam Smith's analogy is sneaking into a movie theater to watch a film without paying, even if the film has started already. No harm done because the seat was not occupied, right? I am sorry, but in my book that is not right. Of course if you ask staff if you can go in for free because the film has already started and they let you in, then fine.

Not completely related, but I remember one time I was on a short flight and unusually the aircraft had the lie flat beds in J and more than 75% of J seats were empty. We were delayed at the gate and expected to have to stay there for at least one hour due to bad weather at destination with all flights grounded. We were still on the ground and expected to remain there for quite a while, so I asked the SD if I could pay cash to upgrade to J, or use eupgrade credits to upgrade. I just did not want to sit in Y for a few hours at the gate waiting for departure. The SD explained to me that it was unfortunately not possible. Fine. Different situation, different flight, different staff, different passengers, etc, but if someone cannot upgrade on board while stuck at the gate despite offering to pay cash for a J seat, but someone can self-upgrade without permission mid flight? It's easy to see the issue here. As I said, if AC allowed self-upgrading without permission but refusing my offer to pay cash for an upgrade, they are free to manage their business this way, but then as a customer I would be free to fly with another airline if that was the case.
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Old Mar 9, 2018, 6:44 am
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In case my feelings are lost Ill just restate Im with kicking the kid back to Y for all the reasons listed above.

However, what I wanted to add is that remember AC doesnt like opupping even their SEMM members unless they have to over bumping people. So AC J would tend to have more spaces than say .. UA J where its often filled by GS/1k or whatever pax.

AC has made it clear J is a exclusive cabin and if you want these perks either pay or use their upgrade systems - pretty much all of which also involve at least some money these days, even if its just booking Flex over Tango.

So why should they allow people to sit in J just because their parent/friend/whatever is there. Arent airlines meant to also have a manifest of where people are sitting? Can this easily be amended mid flight?

Clearly this is FT and we almost never get universal agreement
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Old Mar 9, 2018, 7:01 am
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Let's be clear here: I don't condone self-upgrading, I wouldn't do it and I wouldn't bring my kid up to the J cabin if I was there and he was in Y. And if I did I'd expect the FA/SD to politely ask him to head back to his seat. Assigned seating is a thing. I just find all the faux outrage over something that doesn't directly impact people hilarious.

Originally Posted by Adam Smith
You and CZAMFlyer seem to think that things happen in a vacuum, but life is not that simple. While BenL's infamous cheapening comment may have lacked tact, he was saying something that had been said for a while by other airlines. DL, in particular, has been vocal for years about the fact that much of its front cabins have been filled with people who got there through complimentary upgrades (i.e. paid no premium for their premium experience). In any one case, letting a customer sit up front without paying for it (either through comp up or, as in this case, just taking the seat) teaches customers that it can be done without paying for it and they adjust their behaviour accordingly.

While CZAM used the term "slippery slope" in a pejorative sense to imply that this assumption was fallacious, but the airline industry has real life experiences that bear it out and has been pushing customers to move away from this model.
Yes, I am sure one kid sitting in an empty seat next to his dad in J portents a stampede of pax from row 48 in to the J cabin.

Originally Posted by Adam Smith
Your boundless self-righteousness is truly extraordinary.
The only self-righteousness I see in this thread is all of the RCMHHP with their panties in a knot over some kid in a J seat he didn't pay for. Like the J cabin on an AC flight is some kind of sacred place that shouldn't be violated by heathens who didn't pay. Get over yourselves people.
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Old Mar 9, 2018, 7:36 am
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Originally Posted by escape4
No. If the father had asked the SD if his son could come up to J and the answer was yes, then fine. AC is a business and they are free to do what they think is best. Then all passengers will behave accordingly once we know that AC will allow it, sometimes, based on their judgment. If you want a guaranteed J seat you pay for it, and if not you can buy in Y and ask and take a chance the answer will be no.

The problem is that the father did it without asking.

If I go to a restaurant and I need to pay a surcharge to get the salad buffet, and let's say I pay and eat the salad. Another customer next to me does not pay, but asks the restaurant owner if he can have something from the buffet and the answer is yes, then who am I to complain? Perhaps there are several circumstances leading to the owner's decision that I am not even aware of. But if the chap next to me goes to the buffet and starts eating without permission, that is something else.

I like Adam Smith's analogy is sneaking into a movie theater to watch a film without paying, even if the film has started already. No harm done because the seat was not occupied, right? I am sorry, but in my book that is not right. Of course if you ask staff if you can go in for free because the film has already started and they let you in, then fine.

Not completely related, but I remember one time I was on a short flight and unusually the aircraft had the lie flat beds in J and more than 75% of J seats were empty. We were delayed at the gate and expected to have to stay there for at least one hour due to bad weather at destination with all flights grounded. We were still on the ground and expected to remain there for quite a while, so I asked the SD if I could pay cash to upgrade to J, or use eupgrade credits to upgrade. I just did not want to sit in Y for a few hours at the gate waiting for departure. The SD explained to me that it was unfortunately not possible. Fine. Different situation, different flight, different staff, different passengers, etc, but if someone cannot upgrade on board while stuck at the gate despite offering to pay cash for a J seat, but someone can self-upgrade without permission mid flight? It's easy to see the issue here. As I said, if AC allowed self-upgrading without permission but refusing my offer to pay cash for an upgrade, they are free to manage their business this way, but then as a customer I would be free to fly with another airline if that was the case.
Look, if people like you & @Adam Smith keep bringing up things like an understanding of facts, and common sense, then where will it leave us? This is FT, for goodness sake! Where's your sense of faux outrage? The very least you could do is start quoting poetry. C'mon!
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Old Mar 9, 2018, 8:10 am
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Originally Posted by Adam Smith
If he wanted to sit beside his son, he could have gone back to Y. Surely someone in Y would have happily taken the father's seat in J if Y had been full. The kid (or rather his parents) did not pay for him to sit in J, yet he would be sitting in J. Unlike every other person who sat where they had paid to sit (in one currency or another) or were upgraded at the discretion of the airline (if there were any op-ups).
This is the most non-entitled thing that the Dad-in-J could've done ^ I've given up an op-up in the past to sit with a family member in Y, and it was a strangely rewarding feeling. The recipient was extremely thankful and thoroughly enjoyed her first-ever ride up front.

Originally Posted by RatherBeInYOW
Let's be clear here: I don't condone self-upgrading, I wouldn't do it and I wouldn't bring my kid up to the J cabin if I was there and he was in Y. And if I did I'd expect the FA/SD to politely ask him to head back to his seat. Assigned seating is a thing. I just find all the faux outrage over something that doesn't directly impact people hilarious.
+1
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Old Mar 9, 2018, 8:19 am
  #81  
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This is a funny thread. Popcorn required
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Old Mar 9, 2018, 8:37 am
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[QUOTE=Low Roller;29502670][QUOTE] I'm more disturbed about the lesson that it is teaching the child. Not only did the father abandon him (and presumably whoever else was flying with him) in order to enjoy the comforts of J, but then he teaches the kid that it's ok to move up front if there are any empty seats. For those of you who use the "he's only a kid" argument, just remember that he won't be a kid forever. He will be an entitled teen in a few years and an entited adult a few years after that.



How is this twisting or inventing the facts? Seriously, that is exactly what happened. The father chose to fly in the comfort of J and made the kid slum it in Y.
I do agree with Low Roller : AC (nor any other major airlines) wouldn't let a 6yrs old kid fly alone in the back, even if the father is in the front. So the kid must have been with someone...
So, the assumption is probably correct.

And now, I'll do another assumption (and this time, just for fun). Let's assume he was with his mum. I would have loved to be there when the husband was telling his wife that he will fly in First class while she stays with the kid in the back
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Old Mar 9, 2018, 9:28 am
  #83  
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Originally Posted by CZAMFlyer
One wonders what possible effect a well-behaved child would have on the inner sanctum of AC's opulent J. I understand the opposition to an adult companion moving forward, but to a 6yr old child?

There's rules, and there should also be latitude for discretionary judgements.
Why is a child different? I assume there was another parent in back who missed the UG and was with the child.

Nobody who didn't buy an UG or earn one, or pay full fare, should be up in J.
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Old Mar 9, 2018, 9:34 am
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Originally Posted by Proudelitist
Nobody who didn't buy an UG or earn one, or pay full fare, should be up in J.
Yeah, you tell ‘em!!! Those C, D, Z and P fares be damned!! Theives, all of them, who deserve to sit in Y!!
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Old Mar 9, 2018, 9:35 am
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This post by @Adam Smith should be memorialized in a some sort of hall of fame:

Originally Posted by Adam Smith
Why are you opposed to an adult consuming a service that they did not a pay for, but not a child?

...
Comprehensive, clearly articulated, and unassailable in its logic.

I find it interesting that @CZAMFlyer and @RatherBeInYOW are essentially accusing @Adam Smith, @24left, myself, and many others of virtue signalling our moral absolutism and thereby being disingenuous. Meanwhile, the exact same thing could be said for them: @CZAMFlyer and @RatherBeInYOW are also virtue signalling, but in their case, the signal being sent is about their greater capacity for compassion and their indifference towards AC's mediocre J product.

Anyways, I think everything that could be said on this topic has been said. Perhaps @tcook052 could let one of @CZAMFlyer or @RatherBeInYOW have the last word and then close this thread.
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Last edited by capedreamer; Mar 9, 2018 at 10:01 am
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Old Mar 9, 2018, 10:22 am
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Thanks capedreamer, but I'm not jostling for the last word. These are mine, but others are welcome to follow.

I stated I don't condone adults self-upgrading, but asked the forum if it's a different scenario with a small boy sitting next to his father in an unoccupied seat after the meal had been served. Most reactions were themselves interesting, revealing and very linear. Many people used some slippery logic and all voiced a strong opinion. I believe the comment above about 'quoting poetry' was an (embarrassed?) reaction to what may have been my stinging observation: that the most trivial matters are often those most heatedly opposed.

I think that the SD did a good thing by asking the child to return to his original seat. But I would not have raised an eyebrow in protest had the kid been allowed to stay. It appears my tolerance level is in the minority amongst this crowd.

Long may they fly in blessed, non-discretionary exclusivity.
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Old Mar 9, 2018, 11:24 am
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Originally Posted by CZAMFlyer
All of these transactions are completed before the airplane leaves the ground, are they not? Which was - again - not the case in the example we're discussing.
Nope, the fare collection actually started after reaching cruise altitude and it was cash only. Not suggesting this is germane to the discussion but rather just one of those interesting airline oddities from the past.
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Old Mar 9, 2018, 11:26 am
  #88  
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Funny thing being, if the dad would have nicely asked the SD instead of self-upgrading, he might have been successful.

Has happened to us on a number of airlines (but never tried on AC).
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Old Mar 9, 2018, 11:33 am
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Originally Posted by capedreamer
Anyways, I think everything that could be said on this topic has been said.
Perfectly put! :-)
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Old Mar 9, 2018, 12:00 pm
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Kids, especially those aged 6 and being smaller than adults, should be fine in Y no?
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