AC569 Denied Boarding - Seeking Witnesses/Accounts (1/11 SFO-YVR)
Jan 12, 2018, 6:04 am
#31
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I hear you, and the lesson is well taken even if I do think the gate agents response was well out of line.
It's pretty clear you were having a not-so-good day .... business problems, delays, and annoying crowds of other people. And ... yeah, that sucks. Just observing your responses to others here, leaves me with the opinion that you're the kind of guy who works hard, knows what you want, and pushes hard to get it. Fair. And it sounds like that approach has worked well for you in business; good for you.
But for you to state that "Jerkish behavior doth not a security threat make", speaks volumes. Don't conflate "security threat" with "terrorism" ... think "extremely disruptive behavior onboard combined with a total lack of respect for authority, leading to the need for the plane to divert enroute". I'm not accusing you of that extreme ... but that's what the gate agents are screening for. And in that light, the difference between "Jerkish behavior" and "security threat" starts to become a very grey area.
Did the agent overreact in this case? Perhaps; I wasn't there to judge. And honestly, I do understand the fact that everyone has totally crappy days on occasion.
But if you wanted to search for lessons to learn from this exercise, a starting point might be to resolve that "Jerkish behavior doth not a good flying experience make"
But for you to state that "Jerkish behavior doth not a security threat make", speaks volumes. Don't conflate "security threat" with "terrorism" ... think "extremely disruptive behavior onboard combined with a total lack of respect for authority, leading to the need for the plane to divert enroute". I'm not accusing you of that extreme ... but that's what the gate agents are screening for. And in that light, the difference between "Jerkish behavior" and "security threat" starts to become a very grey area.
Did the agent overreact in this case? Perhaps; I wasn't there to judge. And honestly, I do understand the fact that everyone has totally crappy days on occasion.
But if you wanted to search for lessons to learn from this exercise, a starting point might be to resolve that "Jerkish behavior doth not a good flying experience make"
Jan 12, 2018, 6:14 am
#32
Join Date: Apr 2016
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I wasn't there, so I won't comment on who is right or who is wrong.
One thing I do want to mention, and maybe some people find this offensive, is that many airline customer facing employees are simply not very good at interpersonal skills, nor have they received appropriate trainings. Based on my experience and so many stories here, many employees simply can not function properly once under stress. Many of them engage in aggressive behaviours and make up rules. When I am unfortunate enough to deal one if those agents, my goal is to just get what I need with as little effort as possible. Arguing with them, correcting them, or lecturing them is too costly for me and that's not my job.
One thing I do want to mention, and maybe some people find this offensive, is that many airline customer facing employees are simply not very good at interpersonal skills, nor have they received appropriate trainings. Based on my experience and so many stories here, many employees simply can not function properly once under stress. Many of them engage in aggressive behaviours and make up rules. When I am unfortunate enough to deal one if those agents, my goal is to just get what I need with as little effort as possible. Arguing with them, correcting them, or lecturing them is too costly for me and that's not my job.
Jan 12, 2018, 6:30 am
#33
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All quite true, but all the more reason not to raise your profile with any airline employee who is potentially vindictive or irrational him/herself, and in a position to deny travel / wreck your day / etc. In this case the game was over the moment OP raised his voice.
Jan 12, 2018, 6:49 am
#34
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No doubt we have received a version of events that are sanitized heavily in the OP's favour but even by his own admission he acted like a jerk and shouted at a gate agent. He got what he deserved. Instead of learning a lesson he is now trolling for "witnesses" here.
Jan 12, 2018, 7:11 am
#35
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I think that AC gives about the same treatment to UA *Gs as UA gives to AC *Gs. I'm not sure your status really had anything to do with this incident anyway. I suspect the incident would have taken place if you were a zone 3 "blocking" the lane for zone 2, or if you were in zone 2 by virtue of having purchased a Latitude fare, etc.
Jan 12, 2018, 7:20 am
#36
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I have been flying for a long, long time. I can't recall every raising my voice to an airline employee...ever.
This includes all kinds of cancelled flights, sitting around airports for weather delays..you name it, I have been there.
Do I get frustrated at times? Absolutely. Do I take it out on front line airline employees. No. Yelling at staff makes one look like a fool and someone who cannot contain themselves.
This includes all kinds of cancelled flights, sitting around airports for weather delays..you name it, I have been there.
Do I get frustrated at times? Absolutely. Do I take it out on front line airline employees. No. Yelling at staff makes one look like a fool and someone who cannot contain themselves.
Jan 12, 2018, 7:21 am
#37
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"raised my voice".
That is the beginning and the end of this entire situation. Those words come from the OP's mouth.
The rest of this is all irrelevant and it doesn't matter.
This will have been clearly documented by the GA and any other personnel present and all it will take is the GA writing "I felt threatened" or "I was concerned about the passenger's stability" and this is all over. Even if the GA was mistaken, AC will back its employee in this circumstance.
All a complaint risks is someone more senior at AC looking at this and determining that it doesn't want OP as a customer for some future period.
Incidentally, people thinking of making recordings of goings on do need to consider local laws which differ from state to state as well as airport rules which, in some locations are municipal ordinances. In this case it is not really that important because it is the voice raising which OP admits which is likely the operative fact.. Who stood where and whether the standing actually delayed a flight is immaterial.
That is the beginning and the end of this entire situation. Those words come from the OP's mouth.
The rest of this is all irrelevant and it doesn't matter.
This will have been clearly documented by the GA and any other personnel present and all it will take is the GA writing "I felt threatened" or "I was concerned about the passenger's stability" and this is all over. Even if the GA was mistaken, AC will back its employee in this circumstance.
All a complaint risks is someone more senior at AC looking at this and determining that it doesn't want OP as a customer for some future period.
Incidentally, people thinking of making recordings of goings on do need to consider local laws which differ from state to state as well as airport rules which, in some locations are municipal ordinances. In this case it is not really that important because it is the voice raising which OP admits which is likely the operative fact.. Who stood where and whether the standing actually delayed a flight is immaterial.
Last edited by Often1; Jan 12, 2018 at 7:28 am
Jan 12, 2018, 7:36 am
#38
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I think that AC gives about the same treatment to UA *Gs as UA gives to AC *Gs. I'm not sure your status really had anything to do with this incident anyway. I suspect the incident would have taken place if you were a zone 3 "blocking" the lane for zone 2, or if you were in zone 2 by virtue of having purchased a Latitude fare, etc.
to to those who believe raising ones voice is passable as threatening behavior, I guess that means I can file assault charges against sue for doing the same to me.
ill I’ll let ac look at my flying history and decide how they feel about me as a customer. Would be eye opening if this was dispositive in that regard.
Thanks for all the thoughts, and have a good weekend.
Jan 12, 2018, 8:42 am
#39
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Jan 12, 2018, 8:49 am
#40
Join Date: Oct 2006
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I wasn't there, so I won't comment on who is right or who is wrong.
One thing I do want to mention, and maybe some people find this offensive, is that many airline customer facing employees are simply not very good at interpersonal skills, nor have they received appropriate trainings. Based on my experience and so many stories here, many employees simply can not function properly once under stress. Many of them engage in aggressive behaviours and make up rules. When I am unfortunate enough to deal one if those agents, my goal is to just get what I need with as little effort as possible. Arguing with them, correcting them, or lecturing them is too costly for me and that's not my job.
One thing I do want to mention, and maybe some people find this offensive, is that many airline customer facing employees are simply not very good at interpersonal skills, nor have they received appropriate trainings. Based on my experience and so many stories here, many employees simply can not function properly once under stress. Many of them engage in aggressive behaviours and make up rules. When I am unfortunate enough to deal one if those agents, my goal is to just get what I need with as little effort as possible. Arguing with them, correcting them, or lecturing them is too costly for me and that's not my job.
Whatever the OP’s behavior, a reasonably skilled GA could have easily deflected him and moved on.
Jan 12, 2018, 8:52 am
#41
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You might also want to consider that your demonstrated behaviour could raise questions as to how you would behave in-flight. If you raised your voice with cabin crew like you did with the GA... you perhaps gave enough fodder for being a "security threat" with AC, either on the ground or in the air.
Having said that, although I've never been in your situation before, I have raised my voice in the past with CATSA agents in the past but quickly stood down and accepted the learned helplessness "thick skin" that one develops over time when flying a lot. As a fellow *G, I understand the stress you endure when flying (frequently), but at the same time, you just have to roll with the punches.
Jan 12, 2018, 8:54 am
#42
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This, absolutely. For a number of years I flew regularly into and out of SAN on UA and there was one GA who was constantly getting into arguments with passengers prior to and during boarding. I had a very polite discussion with her once about status privileges that she denied me (she was wrong) and quickly realized this was a person you could not argue with so just shrugged my shoulders and walked away. She was completely unsuited for job. I never engaged her after that conversation. Some people just bring trouble with them and there’s nothing you can do no matter how right you are and how wrong they are.
Whatever the OP’s behavior, a reasonably skilled GA could have easily deflected him and moved on.
Jan 12, 2018, 9:09 am
#43
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When we are stressed out by travel delays (something which undoubtedly afflicts all travelers, frequent or no), it's important to remember than no matter what order you board the aircraft in, everyone will be arriving to the destination at the same time. It seems like the most jostling / chaos at the gate occurs for delayed flights and I'm happy to take a seat far away from the action and be one of the last to board, knowing that with a good seat assignment I'll be one of the first to get off.
Jan 12, 2018, 9:13 am
#44
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I’ve certainly heard very loud UA *G people moaning at the gate about being Zone 2 despite being GS or 1K. They were ignored by everyone inciuding AC staff however.
That said, while we have to take a one sided viewpoint here - no matter how truthful the OP is being it could be slanted by other unseen factors. It does sound like a GA on a power trip. Perhaps she was having a bad day, for whatever reason (family emergency etc...) and didn’t deal with it professionally.
Dealing with “loud” customers whatever the personal situation is, or should be, part of any customer facing role. And I’ve worked in and managed these teams (retail not airlines).
If indeed she felt here was a security risk surely calling airport security should be the first step. Also ripping up a BP sounds extremely childish. As does saying you are no longer zone 2. What, you’re now Zone 5? AC zonal boarding could certainly use some work but this doesn’t sound like a great way of handling it.
In summary, OP handled it badly, and AC possibly overreacted. If you are able... please do let us know what response you get.
That said, while we have to take a one sided viewpoint here - no matter how truthful the OP is being it could be slanted by other unseen factors. It does sound like a GA on a power trip. Perhaps she was having a bad day, for whatever reason (family emergency etc...) and didn’t deal with it professionally.
Dealing with “loud” customers whatever the personal situation is, or should be, part of any customer facing role. And I’ve worked in and managed these teams (retail not airlines).
If indeed she felt here was a security risk surely calling airport security should be the first step. Also ripping up a BP sounds extremely childish. As does saying you are no longer zone 2. What, you’re now Zone 5? AC zonal boarding could certainly use some work but this doesn’t sound like a great way of handling it.
In summary, OP handled it badly, and AC possibly overreacted. If you are able... please do let us know what response you get.
Jan 12, 2018, 9:18 am
#45
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