Swiss first class bookable!
Dec 10, 2017, 9:45 am
#346
Suspended
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Kan@da
Programs: Anything with sweet spots
Posts: 1,790
Don't have a dog in this fight and not an active aeroplan patron but have been following this issue. Two thoughts come to mind -
1. Aeroplan seems to be relying on language that their award terms specifically prohibit LX F bookings. Does Aeroplan also have language that says the the terms and conditions of the program can be changed at their discretion without notice ? It appears that LX bookings have been allowed in the past despite the no LX F language so would that have been a precedent setting event where the terms and conditions were changed without notice ? Would love to hear the opinion of any legal professionals on here as I am not a legal professional.
2. I remember seeing stories about a gentleman in Canada who is a tenacious passenger rights advocate and has had great success representing passengers - I think his name was Gabor - has anyone reached out to him ?
1. Aeroplan seems to be relying on language that their award terms specifically prohibit LX F bookings. Does Aeroplan also have language that says the the terms and conditions of the program can be changed at their discretion without notice ? It appears that LX bookings have been allowed in the past despite the no LX F language so would that have been a precedent setting event where the terms and conditions were changed without notice ? Would love to hear the opinion of any legal professionals on here as I am not a legal professional.
2. I remember seeing stories about a gentleman in Canada who is a tenacious passenger rights advocate and has had great success representing passengers - I think his name was Gabor - has anyone reached out to him ?
Dec 10, 2017, 11:23 am
#347
Join Date: Jan 2000
Programs: Free agent
Posts: 1,296
Guys.. this isn't an error fare, where an airline offers a fare (too) cheap, and where you might at least have some "reason" to believe it was possible. Say, LX does offer 2k tickets in F sometimes (partner fares) - so anything around like 1.5k could still be seen as "realistic".
This here is simply something that they forbid (F tickets only for their own Super-Elite members SEN and HON) - there was a system glitch which allowed booking of F. They figured it out, and cancelled it. Considering probably every single person knew EXACTLY what was going on here, I doubt you got much chance. This is slightly different to a "very good deal fare", especially if it sticks around for slightly longer and anyone could find it on kayak & co by chance.
This here is simply something that they forbid (F tickets only for their own Super-Elite members SEN and HON) - there was a system glitch which allowed booking of F. They figured it out, and cancelled it. Considering probably every single person knew EXACTLY what was going on here, I doubt you got much chance. This is slightly different to a "very good deal fare", especially if it sticks around for slightly longer and anyone could find it on kayak & co by chance.
Dec 10, 2017, 12:41 pm
#348
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Vancouver
Programs: Aeroplan, Mileage Plus, WestJet Gold, AMEX Plat
Posts: 2,026
They offered to put people in CA F.
Alternatively, LH F can be had <2 weeks in advantage.
LX F simply shouldn't have been allowed to be available for Non-M&M-Super Elite members. If a store is left open overnight accidentally, you can't walk in and take everything without the police later coming to look for you.
Alternatively, LH F can be had <2 weeks in advantage.
LX F simply shouldn't have been allowed to be available for Non-M&M-Super Elite members. If a store is left open overnight accidentally, you can't walk in and take everything without the police later coming to look for you.
More appropriate analogy would be you walk into a store you regular shop. They have a special item on display, that they don't normally carry year round. You have seen it in the store once or twice before, it is a about the same or a little more expensive than their regular offering but well worth it. You jump on it. The sales associate thanks you for your business (the case with the posters who talked to the call center) and helps you take out to car.
You then discover in the middle of the night the manufacture comes in your home unannounced. The manufacture does not say anything at all just walks out of your home and mutters something about your not allowed to have his product. The store is left to cleanup the mess and issue a refund.
Dec 10, 2017, 1:01 pm
#349
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Programs: AC SE100K, F9 100k, NK Gold, UA *S, Hyatt Glob, Bonvoy Titanium
Posts: 5,194
I agree, though, that Aeroplan was very negligent. It would have taken a competent programmer 10 minutes to mask/hide any Swiss F result, since it was a known fact that Swiss F would never be bookable. The 'junior' front line call center agents should have also known policy and to not book what they should not be eligible for.
Dec 10, 2017, 1:24 pm
#350
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Toronto (YYZ)
Posts: 6,279
Further to my DOT complaint against SWISS. I just received this via email:
Dear Mr. XXX
We are contacting you regarding your message, which has been registered under the reference XXXXXXX
SWISS is committed to offering a high quality of service and your concern is therefore important to us. However, due to a high volume of requests, you may experience a delay in receiving a response. Your patience is greatly appreciated while we process your file. We will get back to you as soon as possible.
Yours sincerely,
Customer Feedback Services
Swiss International Air Lines Ltd
Postfach 2013
8032 Zurich
Switzerland
SWISS.COM/CUSTOMERSERVICE
Dear Mr. XXX
We are contacting you regarding your message, which has been registered under the reference XXXXXXX
SWISS is committed to offering a high quality of service and your concern is therefore important to us. However, due to a high volume of requests, you may experience a delay in receiving a response. Your patience is greatly appreciated while we process your file. We will get back to you as soon as possible.
Yours sincerely,
Customer Feedback Services
Swiss International Air Lines Ltd
Postfach 2013
8032 Zurich
Switzerland
SWISS.COM/CUSTOMERSERVICE
Dec 10, 2017, 2:04 pm
#352
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: SFO
Programs: AC SE MM, BA Gold, SQ Silver, Bonvoy Tit LTG, Hyatt Glob, HH Diamond
Posts: 44,324
Certainly not 0.04 cents.
I don't have any bookings involved, but I would have to say that other *A partners likely only had 5% or less of the booking volume as Aeroplan. It may have been deemed a minor cost to those award programs to keep the few bookings in place, or maybe they have better clauses in their contracts to force the bookings to stick.
I agree, though, that Aeroplan was very negligent. It would have taken a competent programmer 10 minutes to mask/hide any Swiss F result, since it was a known fact that Swiss F would never be bookable. The 'junior' front line call center agents should have also known policy and to not book what they should not be eligible for.
I agree, though, that Aeroplan was very negligent. It would have taken a competent programmer 10 minutes to mask/hide any Swiss F result, since it was a known fact that Swiss F would never be bookable. The 'junior' front line call center agents should have also known policy and to not book what they should not be eligible for.
They didn't call you "yet". When is your flight?
Dec 10, 2017, 3:48 pm
#353
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Toronto (YYZ)
Posts: 6,279
I thought it was 3 cents too but when I took TAP to court and I was getting my documents together I discovered it had gone up to 4 cents!
https://www.aeroplan.com/faqhelp?currentLanguage=en
https://www.aeroplan.com/faqhelp?currentLanguage=en
Dec 10, 2017, 4:03 pm
#354
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: YYZ
Programs: FOTSG Tangerine Ex E35k (AC)
Posts: 5,612
I thought it was 3 cents too but when I took TAP to court and I was getting my documents together I discovered it had gone up to 4 cents!
4+tax ... I noticed this last week and thought it was just me who had remembered wrong. I guess not.
Dec 10, 2017, 4:05 pm
#355
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: SFO
Programs: AC SE MM, BA Gold, SQ Silver, Bonvoy Tit LTG, Hyatt Glob, HH Diamond
Posts: 44,324
I thought it was 3 cents too but when I took TAP to court and I was getting my documents together I discovered it had gone up to 4 cents!
https://www.aeroplan.com/faqhelp?currentLanguage=en
https://www.aeroplan.com/faqhelp?currentLanguage=en
Dec 10, 2017, 4:32 pm
#356
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: トロント
Programs: IHG Gold
Posts: 4,820
Further to my DOT complaint against SWISS. I just received this via email:
Dear Mr. XXX
We are contacting you regarding your message, which has been registered under the reference XXXXXXX
SWISS is committed to offering a high quality of service and your concern is therefore important to us. However, due to a high volume of requests, you may experience a delay in receiving a response. Your patience is greatly appreciated while we process your file. We will get back to you as soon as possible.
In other words:
Yours sincerely,
Customer Feedback Services
Swiss International Air Lines Ltd
Postfach 2013
8032 Zurich
Switzerland
SWISS.COM/CUSTOMERSERVICE
Dear Mr. XXX
We are contacting you regarding your message, which has been registered under the reference XXXXXXX
SWISS is committed to offering a high quality of service and your concern is therefore important to us. However, due to a high volume of requests, you may experience a delay in receiving a response. Your patience is greatly appreciated while we process your file. We will get back to you as soon as possible.
In other words:
Yours sincerely,
Customer Feedback Services
Swiss International Air Lines Ltd
Postfach 2013
8032 Zurich
Switzerland
SWISS.COM/CUSTOMERSERVICE
Dec 10, 2017, 6:08 pm
#357
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 70
Here's a detailed datapoint for people. My scheduled LX F flight from GVA->JFK (June) was cancelled as expected yesterday night. I never heard from Aeroplan (or Swiss) but found out I by email I had been rebooked in LX J (both segments) from GVA-ZRH-JFK.
The call was slow and tedious, but I was told
1) They could not open up any space in F/J on Lufthansa (not surprisingly)
2) They agreed to my request to cut the first segment and only keep ZRH-NYC. I will be coming home from Nice France so I chose to book my own revenue ticket NCE rather than having 2 stopovers. No award space was found that day (in Biz or Econ) from Nice-ZRH.
3) After long delay to bring in supervisor, I was told if I find extra award space on Lufthansa (F) or to add a NCE-ZRH segment, I could do so without any change fees.
4) I was given 30,000 aeroplan miles to account for the difference between F and J (2*15000).
5) I was allowed to transfer my 30,000 aeroplan miles back to Amex (presumably to get 25K Amex as I had a 1.2x transfer promotion). I accepted but haven't gotten the Amex transfer yet
6) I was told that no other compensation was in order. I asked about European rule 261 and whether I qualify for 75% reimbursement for a downgrade and she said she didn't know but that nothing was being offered by Aeroplan.
Overall I'm of mixed feelings. I was actually going to book this Biz ticket before the F class availability became available, so I didn't lose a ton in this transaction. They did the bare minimum and I am happy I can (supposedly) get a change without fees if better space opens up. On the other hand, I was really annoyed I wasted 1.5 hours on this and they never reached out to me after more than a week of having confirmed tickets. Half was waiting for the initial agent and another 20 minutes being put on hold. (Admittedly I did it in what was ~10pm Swiss time, so who knows what call center I was speaking with.)
I will be following up with Swiss (and filing claim if necessary) since my reading of the EU 261 rule seems to suggest a partial refund (either in USD or aeroplan miles). I'm interested to see if either DOT or EU rules lead to additional compensation.
The call was slow and tedious, but I was told
1) They could not open up any space in F/J on Lufthansa (not surprisingly)
2) They agreed to my request to cut the first segment and only keep ZRH-NYC. I will be coming home from Nice France so I chose to book my own revenue ticket NCE rather than having 2 stopovers. No award space was found that day (in Biz or Econ) from Nice-ZRH.
3) After long delay to bring in supervisor, I was told if I find extra award space on Lufthansa (F) or to add a NCE-ZRH segment, I could do so without any change fees.
4) I was given 30,000 aeroplan miles to account for the difference between F and J (2*15000).
5) I was allowed to transfer my 30,000 aeroplan miles back to Amex (presumably to get 25K Amex as I had a 1.2x transfer promotion). I accepted but haven't gotten the Amex transfer yet
6) I was told that no other compensation was in order. I asked about European rule 261 and whether I qualify for 75% reimbursement for a downgrade and she said she didn't know but that nothing was being offered by Aeroplan.
Overall I'm of mixed feelings. I was actually going to book this Biz ticket before the F class availability became available, so I didn't lose a ton in this transaction. They did the bare minimum and I am happy I can (supposedly) get a change without fees if better space opens up. On the other hand, I was really annoyed I wasted 1.5 hours on this and they never reached out to me after more than a week of having confirmed tickets. Half was waiting for the initial agent and another 20 minutes being put on hold. (Admittedly I did it in what was ~10pm Swiss time, so who knows what call center I was speaking with.)
I will be following up with Swiss (and filing claim if necessary) since my reading of the EU 261 rule seems to suggest a partial refund (either in USD or aeroplan miles). I'm interested to see if either DOT or EU rules lead to additional compensation.
Dec 11, 2017, 10:09 am
#358
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 350
Dec 11, 2017, 10:16 am
#359
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Programs: AC SE100K, F9 100k, NK Gold, UA *S, Hyatt Glob, Bonvoy Titanium
Posts: 5,194
the agents basically said "wow, let me hurry and book for a $30 booking fee...." rather than refuse to book or escalate to clarify if the rules had been relaxed. what would have happened if their system started redeeming for the wrong points value, maybe 40-50% less than documented. Would those agents have continued to give away the farm?
google search shows at least since 2015
"Redeem Aeroplan Miles Flight Reward Chart - Aeroplan.com
https://www.aeroplan.com/FlightRewardChart.do
Dec 15, 2015 - Short-haul Fixed Mileage Flight Rewards are available on Air Canada, Air Canada Express and the Canadian domestic partners. SWISS First Class is not available for reward travel. "
//also, I sure could have used a wake up call that morning while your tickets were being booked.... .could have added a few more DOT complaints
Last edited by expert7700; Dec 11, 2017 at 10:27 am
Dec 11, 2017, 11:11 am
#360
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: PNW
Programs: AS 100K
Posts: 1,551
just got an flight change email from AP regarding my booking for Sept 2018.
Old:
LAX-ZRH F
ZRH-MUC J
New:
LAX-YYZ
YYZ-MUC
both in business (award) and same day as my original date of travel. However, timings are a no go for me. I always fly to Europe such that I depart the west coast in the afternoon and I land in the afternoon/early evening...allows me to work a bit before flying out and stuff. AND LAX-YYZ is on an A320...hell no!!!!
I really find it pathetic of AP that they create this change without making any contact with me and they expect me to call them to agree on this change.
Old:
LAX-ZRH F
ZRH-MUC J
New:
LAX-YYZ
YYZ-MUC
both in business (award) and same day as my original date of travel. However, timings are a no go for me. I always fly to Europe such that I depart the west coast in the afternoon and I land in the afternoon/early evening...allows me to work a bit before flying out and stuff. AND LAX-YYZ is on an A320...hell no!!!!
I really find it pathetic of AP that they create this change without making any contact with me and they expect me to call them to agree on this change.