Nov 20, 2017, 2:16 pm
Last edit by: Argonaut1000
Click here to go to a picture of the White Compensation Form and its stub
View Deflated Seat History Here (Database for submitted occurrences)
Enter New Deflated Seat Occurrence Here (Submit one if you have experienced deflated seat and it will show up in the database above)
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From post #49 in this thread, here's one potential way to (re)inflate an AC seat:
A better method is for a crew member to use the reset switch under the seat, on the aisle side.
Compensation offers (green/white sheet completed)
40K AE- Apr 18 (50% back of the J class one way redemption)
2018 Jun - $500 coupon
2018 Sep $1,000 eCoupon or 40K AP (P fare TPAC)
2018 Sep $500 eCoupon (P fare TPAC) (no change on protest- update - 6 months later the $150 was increased to $500 - admitted they had made an error)
Compensation offers (no green/white sheet completed)
100K - May 5 (C$150 eCoupon; was moved to a functioning seat after meal service)
2017 Sept - 8,000 AE miles - reported via complaint web page after realizing it was a faulty seat, not standard discomfort; Asked for return of eUps but they declined.
2017 Nov & 2018 Feb - $500 coupons both times (second time on protest that $500 had been offered the previous time)
2018 Sep. $250 coupon (on a paid J TATL).
2018 Nov - $500 eCoupon (J TATL)
Standard eCoupon compensation offers (no haggling; following a recurring pattern)
~10+ hours: $1000
Long TPAC (TPE-YVR)
~6 to ~10 hours: $500
Short TPAC (NRT-YVR)
TATL
South America: YYZ-GRU
less than ~6 hours: 300
TCON
Have a Service Director (SD) That Is Giving You the Case of the Shrugs? Like the real life version of this ASCII emoji -> Ż\_(ツ)_/Ż ?
No success with the SD and/or crew rectifying your deflated seat and you can't be/aren't accommodated to another J seat? If you asked for a compensation form and the SD says they have no idea what you are talking about, you can use the below picture of the stub portion to help freshen their memory (better than nothing)...
Please note that for the longest time, the "Green Compensation Form" version was used, and there have been recent reports of the "White Compensation Form" replacing the Green version. Reports here have indicated that the two forms are virtually identical except for the colour.
There is now an even newer White Form which explicitly lists "deflated seat" and "deflated seat and fixed", among many other items.
Here is a snapshot of the NEWEST full form (as of August 2019), courtesy of lallied
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/31421855-post2093.html
This is only the stub portion, courtesy of lallied
Mattress pads purchased and listed in this thread
View Deflated Seat History Here (Database for submitted occurrences)
Enter New Deflated Seat Occurrence Here (Submit one if you have experienced deflated seat and it will show up in the database above)
----
From post #49 in this thread, here's one potential way to (re)inflate an AC seat:
- Go the home screen "Your Seat". (find this on the seat side panel; not the main video screen)
- Hold the top left hand corner "Air Canada" (with AC logo) for 3 seconds. Updated (Apr 9 18): may need to hold for as long as 45 seconds for key pad to appear
- Dial pad shows up - hit 3-2-1.
- Press "Reset Lumbar Support"
A better method is for a crew member to use the reset switch under the seat, on the aisle side.
Compensation offers (green/white sheet completed)
40K AE- Apr 18 (50% back of the J class one way redemption)
2018 Jun - $500 coupon
2018 Sep $1,000 eCoupon or 40K AP (P fare TPAC)
2018 Sep $500 eCoupon (P fare TPAC) (no change on protest- update - 6 months later the $150 was increased to $500 - admitted they had made an error)
Compensation offers (no green/white sheet completed)
100K - May 5 (C$150 eCoupon; was moved to a functioning seat after meal service)
2017 Sept - 8,000 AE miles - reported via complaint web page after realizing it was a faulty seat, not standard discomfort; Asked for return of eUps but they declined.
2017 Nov & 2018 Feb - $500 coupons both times (second time on protest that $500 had been offered the previous time)
2018 Sep. $250 coupon (on a paid J TATL).
2018 Nov - $500 eCoupon (J TATL)
Standard eCoupon compensation offers (no haggling; following a recurring pattern)
~10+ hours: $1000
Long TPAC (TPE-YVR)
~6 to ~10 hours: $500
Short TPAC (NRT-YVR)
TATL
South America: YYZ-GRU
less than ~6 hours: 300
TCON
Have a Service Director (SD) That Is Giving You the Case of the Shrugs? Like the real life version of this ASCII emoji -> Ż\_(ツ)_/Ż ?
No success with the SD and/or crew rectifying your deflated seat and you can't be/aren't accommodated to another J seat? If you asked for a compensation form and the SD says they have no idea what you are talking about, you can use the below picture of the stub portion to help freshen their memory (better than nothing)...
Please note that for the longest time, the "Green Compensation Form" version was used, and there have been recent reports of the "White Compensation Form" replacing the Green version. Reports here have indicated that the two forms are virtually identical except for the colour.
There is now an even newer White Form which explicitly lists "deflated seat" and "deflated seat and fixed", among many other items.
Here is a snapshot of the NEWEST full form (as of August 2019), courtesy of lallied
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/31421855-post2093.html
This is only the stub portion, courtesy of lallied
Mattress pads purchased and listed in this thread
Deflategate; new executive pods deflating in-flight
Mar 4, 2019, 8:34 am
#1261
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: SFO
Programs: *G^2, Bonvoyed, NEXUS
Posts: 3,506
I'm happy to report that on my two most recent TPACs (YVR-HKG and TPE-YVR) that I had two fully inflated seats, and two SDs who were proactively telling pax to let them know if the seat feels deflated or uncomfortable.
Mar 4, 2019, 8:38 am
#1262
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: YYZ / LHR
Programs: AC SE100k
Posts: 262
Am I missing something? I thought that the seat manufacturer has come up with a fix and it's going through TC certification. As much as I'd love to blame AC for this, isn't it realistically out of their hands? What more can we ask for, aside from more proactive compensation when we do have to suffer a deflated seat? It's not like they can install the fixes without TC approval, and once it's approved, it's going to take months to install, even if AC did everything in its power. Let's face it, it's not realistic that AC -- or any airline for that matter -- is going to ground half its fleet so that the fixes can be installed in a fortnight! Based on what others have posted, I don't agree that AC is currently ignoring the problem (although one could argue that perhaps they were before), and I don't really understand what you guys think you're going to accomplish. AC's communication to us might suck, and it sounds like some SD's need some education on compensation policy, but I just don't see what else AC can do. If I'm missing some part of the equation, please do let me know...
Mar 4, 2019, 9:11 am
#1264
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: YVR - MILLS Waypoint (It's the third house on the left)
Programs: AC*SE100K, wood level status in various other programs
Posts: 6,213
Apparently you are - the entire point of this thread. But some dissection of your post is in order.
Exactly - the operative word here being proactive, which they are not.
Agreed. But Air Canada has over 1,800 of these seats flying and has known about this problem for at least five years. That doesn't sound like "everything in its power" to me.
You correctly identified what we want to accomplish in your closing remarks:
Exactly, - we want them to fix that. That is totally within their power.
"Some" education? How about any education? They are front line customer support and they are failing in that task. Whether it's up to them or their employer is letting them down, the impact of their customers is the same. Again, totally within AC's power.
Well right now they are doing nothing as far as we know.
""We have a problem, so let's not acknowledge it and treat our best customers as whiners." is pretty much the "equation" right now. So If AC is doing nothing, should we just sit here (on concrete) and live with it? Stiff upper lip and all that?
I take back my opening statement - I think you clearly grasp the point of this thread.
But I guess some of us just aren't willing to be passive observers (and recipients) of someone overselling and under-delivering a product we actually use and care about.
I thought that the seat manufacturer has come up with a fix and it's going through TC certification. As much as I'd love to blame AC for this, isn't it realistically out of their hands? What more can we ask for, aside from more proactive compensation when we do have to suffer a deflated seat?
It's not like they can install the fixes without TC approval, and once it's approved, it's going to take months to install, even if AC did everything in its power. Let's face it, it's not realistic that AC -- or any airline for that matter -- is going to ground half its fleet so that the fixes can be installed in a fortnight!
Exactly, - we want them to fix that. That is totally within their power.
Well right now they are doing nothing as far as we know.
""We have a problem, so let's not acknowledge it and treat our best customers as whiners." is pretty much the "equation" right now. So If AC is doing nothing, should we just sit here (on concrete) and live with it? Stiff upper lip and all that?
I take back my opening statement - I think you clearly grasp the point of this thread.
But I guess some of us just aren't willing to be passive observers (and recipients) of someone overselling and under-delivering a product we actually use and care about.
Last edited by Bohemian1; Mar 4, 2019 at 9:18 am Reason: Spelling
Mar 4, 2019, 9:28 am
#1266
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: YYZ / LHR
Programs: AC SE100k
Posts: 262
@SuperCargo
have you read my draft text on potential safety matters that may form a complaint to Transport Canada - the Minister of Transport has the authority to require immediate remediation of any failures that fall within the scope of the Canadian Aviation Regulations, including grounding any and all aircraft that fail to have a valid Operating Certificate, and/or withdraw licences from flight crew that operate an aircraft in contravention of the CARS. So if my safety complaints are upheld, especially the one where aisles might be blocked by improperly secured air mattresses, do you still believe AC should continue to fly in an unsafe condition?
have you read my draft text on potential safety matters that may form a complaint to Transport Canada - the Minister of Transport has the authority to require immediate remediation of any failures that fall within the scope of the Canadian Aviation Regulations, including grounding any and all aircraft that fail to have a valid Operating Certificate, and/or withdraw licences from flight crew that operate an aircraft in contravention of the CARS. So if my safety complaints are upheld, especially the one where aisles might be blocked by improperly secured air mattresses, do you still believe AC should continue to fly in an unsafe condition?
And my complaint to Competition Bureau and Advertising Standards Canada not related to the seat failure itself - but deceptive and misleading advertising that has negative consequences for both consumers and competitors in the marketplace.
And the compensation is NOT proactive, posts somewhere here that SD even denies problem even exists.
AC decides whether to dispatch aircraft with known faulty seats - please elaborate therefore on the concept that "isn't it realistically out of their hands"?
Mar 4, 2019, 9:40 am
#1268
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: YYZ / LHR
Programs: AC SE100k
Posts: 262
You're threatening to try to have the seats decertified by TC because of lack of communication from AC? I can only speak for myself, buy I would be far more annoyed with you forcing me to fly PY or Y on my very regular TATL due to the seats being decertified than me losing the deflation lottery and having to fight AC for some compensation.
I don't know whether AC is doing everything reasonable. I'm going by some posts on this forum by very established members who are telling us that a fix has been identified and is undergoing TC certification. Based on their prior activity on this forum, I'm happy to believe them. I care too, as all of my AC miles last year were in J TATL & TPAC, and all but 2 segments in paid J (those 2 other segments were eUpgraded).
@SuperCargo
have you read my draft text on potential safety matters that may form a complaint to Transport Canada - the Minister of Transport has the authority to require immediate remediation of any failures that fall within the scope of the Canadian Aviation Regulations, including grounding any and all aircraft that fail to have a valid Operating Certificate, and/or withdraw licences from flight crew that operate an aircraft in contravention of the CARS. So if my safety complaints are upheld, especially the one where aisles might be blocked by improperly secured air mattresses, do you still believe AC should continue to fly in an unsafe condition?
And my complaint to Competition Bureau and Advertising Standards Canada not related to the seat failure itself - but deceptive and misleading advertising that has negative consequences for both consumers and competitors in the marketplace.
And the compensation is NOT proactive, posts somewhere here that SD even denies problem even exists.
AC decides whether to dispatch aircraft with known faulty seats - please elaborate therefore on the concept that "isn't it realistically out of their hands"?
have you read my draft text on potential safety matters that may form a complaint to Transport Canada - the Minister of Transport has the authority to require immediate remediation of any failures that fall within the scope of the Canadian Aviation Regulations, including grounding any and all aircraft that fail to have a valid Operating Certificate, and/or withdraw licences from flight crew that operate an aircraft in contravention of the CARS. So if my safety complaints are upheld, especially the one where aisles might be blocked by improperly secured air mattresses, do you still believe AC should continue to fly in an unsafe condition?
And my complaint to Competition Bureau and Advertising Standards Canada not related to the seat failure itself - but deceptive and misleading advertising that has negative consequences for both consumers and competitors in the marketplace.
And the compensation is NOT proactive, posts somewhere here that SD even denies problem even exists.
AC decides whether to dispatch aircraft with known faulty seats - please elaborate therefore on the concept that "isn't it realistically out of their hands"?
1. my complaint will be to TC to investigate whether a safety issue exists or not. Are you a Transport Canada safety inspector that can categorically state that the air mattresses in the cabin pose NO risk. if not, how about we let professionals come to reasonable conclusions about such matters, that includes whether the deflated seat is crashworthy itself.
2.how do you know that AC is doing everything that a lay-person could consider reasonable? If you can share evidence or inside knowledge of AC programs and practices, we are all ears.
I must say until this happened to me paying full J, then was not something on my radar - now that it is will demand AC make right, and token $1,000 offer not even close.
but if your willing to accept park bench for J prices, fill your boots.
2.how do you know that AC is doing everything that a lay-person could consider reasonable? If you can share evidence or inside knowledge of AC programs and practices, we are all ears.
I must say until this happened to me paying full J, then was not something on my radar - now that it is will demand AC make right, and token $1,000 offer not even close.
but if your willing to accept park bench for J prices, fill your boots.
Last edited by tcook052; Mar 4, 2019 at 10:07 am Reason: merge separate posts
Mar 4, 2019, 9:59 am
#1270
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: YUL
Programs: AC SE (*A Gold), Bonvoy Platinum Elite, Hilton Gold, Amex Platinum / AP Reserve, NEXUS, Global Entry
Posts: 5,691
Same here, especially considering I now know what the fix it, thanks in no small part to the numerous contributions from others in this thread.
Mar 4, 2019, 10:25 am
#1271
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC*SE 2MM
Posts: 16,625
I just question what more that they can practically do. I disagree with you that the planes and/or seats are unsafe, and no reasonable for-profit enterprise is going to ground their fleet to sort this sort of problem out. What discrete ACTIONS would you like them to take that are reasonable and won't get the entire management team fired by upset shareholders? They've sought out a technical fix from the manufacturer, they're either in the process of seeking TC certification for the fix or have obtained it, and they may or may not be rolling the fix out to the fleet. What more do you want?
Mar 4, 2019, 10:31 am
#1273
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: YYZ
Programs: FOTSG Tangerine Ex E35k (AC)
Posts: 5,612
What more could they have been doing? How about proactively checking the seats on a very regular basis and immediately replacing the bladders or pneumatics or whatever is the cause of the problem instead of continuing to fly the defective seat for weeks, months or years..
Because as long as we believe whomever reported it, maintaince did it on at least one occasion replace the bladder and it took five minutes. And I assume also fixed the issue, for some period of time.
Mar 4, 2019, 10:49 am
#1274
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: YYC
Posts: 23,791
I just question what more that they can practically do. I disagree with you that the planes and/or seats are unsafe, and no reasonable for-profit enterprise is going to ground their fleet to sort this sort of problem out. What discrete ACTIONS would you like them to take that are reasonable and won't get the entire management team fired by upset shareholders? They've sought out a technical fix from the manufacturer, they're either in the process of seeking TC certification for the fix or have obtained it, and they may or may not be rolling the fix out to the fleet. What more do you want?
Simple: marks seats known to be affected as INOP and not assign them. Let them go empty. But surely you can guess why they don't do that, right?
Mar 4, 2019, 11:05 am
#1275
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Original Poster
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: SFO
Programs: AC SE MM, BA Gold, SQ Silver, Bonvoy Tit LTG, Hyatt Glob, HH Diamond
Posts: 44,302
1. Give FTers a place to share their experiences, and collect more data
2. Give AC one place to look to see the problem
Unless you have evidence they've known this was widespread for 5+ years, I have a hard time accepting that. A couple of reports of seat issues suggests "something broke here, let's fix it", not "the seats are designed poorly". 5 years ago was before AC received 801 with the first iteration of this seat. So let's talk about 4 years ago. There just didn't seem to be enough reported issues for them to realize there was an issue.
However:
What more could they have been doing? How about proactively checking the seats on a very regular basis and immediately replacing the bladders or pneumatics or whatever is the cause of the problem instead of continuing to fly the defective seat for weeks, months or years.
If no one ever reported a deflated seat on boarding, and it only happened in the air, one could argue AC is doing everything they can (testing and fixing while on the ground) until the new design is certified and installed. Heck, even if there were no issues found while boarding, only at AC hubs, that argument could still be made.
But I've had this issue out of YYZ. They're not even remotely doing what they need to be doing to make the claim they're doing everything reasonable.
If you want to take it a step further, they could be blocking seats on aircraft that have not have the fix installed. On my last TPE-YVR, our party of 5 had 3 deflated seats, and there were at most 2 empties in J. But another pax was given one of those.
Either of those options would work. But if I can board to find a deflated seat and have nowhere to move, it’s not “everything that a lay-person would consider reasonable”.
Seems like my opinion on this matter changed (I don't even remember saying that, though I obviously did). If you can identify the deflation quickly, it's fairly easy to rectify (an extra blanket or pillow) enough such that it's still a much better experience than PY. But waking up after sleeping on a deflated seat for a few hours will result in significant pain.