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Deflategate; new executive pods deflating in-flight

Deflategate; new executive pods deflating in-flight

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Old Jun 19, 19, 8:24 am   -   Wikipost
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Last edit by: canadiancow
Wiki Link
Click here to go to a picture of the White Compensation Form and its stub


View Deflated Seat History Here (Database for submitted occurrences)
Enter New Deflated Seat Occurrence Here (Submit one if you have experienced deflated seat and it will show up in the database above)
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From post #49 in this thread, here's one potential way to (re)inflate an AC seat:
  • Go the home screen "Your Seat". (find this on the seat side panel; not the main video screen)
  • Hold the top left hand corner "Air Canada" (with AC logo) for 3 seconds. Updated (Apr 9 18): may need to hold for as long as 45 seconds for key pad to appear
  • Dial pad shows up - hit 3-2-1.
  • Press "Reset Lumbar Support"
Note that this method has not met 100% success so YMMV.
A better method is for a crew member to use the reset switch under the seat, on the aisle side.

Compensation offers (green/white sheet completed)
40K AE- Apr 18 (50% back of the J class one way redemption)
2018 Jun - $500 coupon
2018 Sep $1,000 eCoupon or 40K AP (P fare TPAC)
2018 Sep $150 eCoupon (P fare TPAC) (no change on protest)

Compensation offers (no green/white sheet completed)
100K - May 5 (C$150 eCoupon; was moved to a functioning seat after meal service)
2017 Sept - 8,000 AE miles - reported via complaint web page after realizing it was a faulty seat, not standard discomfort; Asked for return of eUps but they declined.
2017 Nov & 2018 Feb - $500 coupons both times (second time on protest that $500 had been offered the previous time)
2018 Sep. $250 coupon (on a paid J TATL).
2018 Nov - $500 eCoupon (J TATL)

Standard eCoupon compensation offers (no haggling; following a recurring pattern)
~10+ hours: $1000
Long TPAC (TPE-YVR)

~6 to ~10 hours: $500
Short TPAC (NRT-YVR)
TATL
South America: YYZ-GRU

less than ~6 hours: 300
TCON


Have a Service Director (SD) That Is Giving You the Case of the Shrugs? Like the real life version of this ASCII emoji -> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ?

No success with the SD and/or crew rectifying your deflated seat and you can't be/aren't accommodated to another J seat? If you asked for a compensation form and the SD says they have no idea what you are talking about, you can use the below picture of the stub portion to help freshen their memory (better than nothing)...

Please note that for the longest time, the "Green Compensation Form" version was used, and there have been recent reports of the "White Compensation Form" replacing the Green version. Reports here have indicated that the two forms are virtually identical except for the colour.

Here is a snapshot of the full form, courtesy of canadiancow

https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/30914753-post1458.html
Originally Posted by canadiancow View Post
I've been meaning to post this for a while. This is the whole form.

The left section and the tear-off piece were filled out entirely by the SD.

My name was filled out by the SD.

I filled out my address, email, status, Aeroplan number, phone, and chose which type of compensation I wanted.

The main part of the form goes back to the SD, and the passenger keeps the little piece on the right side.



This is only the stub portion, courtesy of lallied
Originally Posted by lallied View Post



There’s a main section which the SD fills in and detachable section you get to keep. Each has a reference number. It looks like the green one to me except it’s white.




Example
Mattress pads purchased and listed in this thread
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Old Mar 15, 19, 8:09 pm
  #1411  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Originally Posted by emma69 View Post
You have already approached AC for resolution. I personally think claims of deceptive advertising are a non starter with the Bureau for the several reasons I have laid out, but then again, notifying them takes about as long as it takes to make a post in this forum, so I am not sure that is much of a valid claim on your time tbh. Or instructing your lawyer, which is likely even quicker since you have already contacted her/him.

Again, personally I think this is a crappy situation, and really hope they get their butts in gear and resolve it asap.
@emma69

Thank you for your insights and pitfalls – always most useful to learn from. Your input has caused me to drop some lines of thinking, and encouraged new thoughts. Granted, and I agree performance never infallible, but AC knows to what extent their advertising is far or near to actual performance (and discoverable by S.11).

Where we part I suppose is on the performance AC is claiming, without footnote/caveat, and the Act is clear performance must be demonstrated by tests. And we know tests have been conducted as Transport Canada certification of cabin will depend on seats folding upright with fully inflated mattress – did these test include deflated situation, have they been updated with deflation realities, etc… btw…just received an AC email offer that has 8 footnotes, so AC knows it must clarify its headline advertising with some fine print.

BUT AC does NO such thing when it comes to its Signature Service, that is outside the Tariff, so this reminds me of something else as AC actions here maybe reviewable under provincial consumer protection law as well.

Marcotte SCOC decision may have far reaching implications, and possibly permit a complaint to B.C. gov’t where I live, should scope extend to other federally regulated industries.

The Marcotte and Adams decisions are landmark cases insofar as they address the interaction between federal banking legislation and provincial consumer protection legislation. While the SCC confirmed that the exclusive federal jurisdiction over banking falls under the purview of the federal government, it also confirmed that it does not necessarily trump provincial consumer protection laws. As a result, in certain circumstances, provincial consumer protection legislation will apply to the activities of banks and other federally regulated financial institutions.
https://www.casselsbrock.com/CBNewsl...d_Credit_Cards

What is also relevant is the provision of the Competition Act itself:

Certain matters need not be established
(4) For greater certainty, in proceedings under sections 74.01 and 74.02, it is not necessary to establish that (a) any person was deceived or misled;
General impression to be considered
(5) In proceedings under sections 74.01 and 74.02, the general impression conveyed by a representation as well as its literal meaning shall be taken into account in determining whether or not the person who made the representation engaged in the reviewable conduct.

S.74.02 deals with performance claims, so I do not need proof that I was misled to make a complaint, and since AC is a major corporation, I reasonably and routinely accept their advertisements as valid, as part of my purchase decisions. And let us not ignore General Impressions, as AC in NOT providing any footnotes or caveats thus intends to leave a particular impression, not something else. Yes, failures do exist, but does AC wish to defend itself in a public forum that the literal meaning of a lie-flat bed actually means something else, like please do NOT forget to bring your camping mattress.

And why WJ is relevant here, NOT the first time a competitor undertook misleading advertising to negatively impact a competitor entering into a market with a similar product. In fact, this may even be a stronger argument than the consumer angle that AC is using its marketing might to harm a new entrant.

The area with most significance is that of AC mitigation at point of failure, which as you know is not a take it or leave it proposition. And here you say nothing about the power imbalance created by the Aeronautics Act. It is simply NOT possible at the point of seat failure for the traveler to have any reasonable influence in the negotiation of an alternative arrangement to generally satisfy the contract terms. Should no empty functioning seats or crew swap be available, on a full flight so even a regular economy seat not available, the traveler will be told to sit down, fasten seat belt, possibly over an extra comforter or two… I fully agree this coercive power is vitally necessary for maintenance of safe flight operations, but when AC uses this same power to force customers to use a deflated seat because they knew, or ought to have known the growing failure rate of those seats, and previously failed to disclose in its advertisements this possibility, then this self-serving mitigation approach must be challenged. And remember, my leverage evaporates with the completion of the flight so truly will CB ignore this power imbalance – we will see, maybe.

And sorry for long text, but this goes further, as two possible complaints exist, the other to the Advertising Standards Council, which can rely on this:

With respect to the ASC Code, in the case of the consumer complaints procedure, if an advertiser fails to voluntarily comply with a Standards Council decision, ASC has the power to advise exhibiting media of the advertiser’s failure to co-operate and request the media’s support in no longer exhibiting the advertising in question. ASC also has the discretion to publicly declare that the advertising and the advertiser in question have been found to have violated the ASC Code. In the case of the advertising dispute procedure, in addition to the above noted powers, ASC may also refer to the Bureau a written summary of the facts and outcome of the hearing where the defendant advertiser either has declined to participate or if ASC believes the defendant advertiser will not comply with the Advertising Dispute Panel’s decision that is unfavourable to the defendant.

Strikes me that maybe should start with ASC complaint first, then to CB if successful.

Finally, @emma69, you clearly have an excellent grasp of these matters – but you only Really Hope this gets resolved

How about you lay out a strategy that might pull this together so others can advance this crappy situation faster for resolution.

Ps…not first time have tilted at even smaller windmills, semi-retirement means just more time to do so…
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Old Mar 15, 19, 8:10 pm
  #1412  
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Originally Posted by YVRtoYYZ View Post
The Klymit one is what I purchased. It fits the width of the seat very well and is quite compact.
Yup, I included your post in my list above to Adam
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Old Mar 15, 19, 8:18 pm
  #1413  
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@Adam Smith

As you requested , I did my thing and went back to what I thought was the first mention of the mattress with a photo (canolakid's) and then went through the thread.

All the links I included my reply to you upthread are posts where there are links to the products people purchased on Amazon, and photos of the mattress pad in its rolled-up form, and photos of some mattress pads open in the AC seats.

Listing the links was the fastest way to gather up the "scientifically sourced" data, LOL

I hope you can work with the links
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Old Mar 15, 19, 8:27 pm
  #1414  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Originally Posted by 24left View Post
@Adam SmithAll the links I included my reply to you upthread are posts where there are links to the products people purchased on Amazon, and photos of the mattress pad in its rolled-up form, and photos of some mattress pads open in the AC seats.
Would anyone be willing to send me photo of mattress installed in AC J seat with your boarding pass (name blocked out) that I can include, should I proceed to formal complaint - thanks...

ps...block out seat and sequence number too otherwise AC could find out who you are.
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Old Mar 15, 19, 9:42 pm
  #1415  
 
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Delete


Last edited by visitor; Mar 15, 19 at 9:50 pm Reason: Wrong
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Old Mar 15, 19, 10:01 pm
  #1416  
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For the record, the one I bought and linked worked great.

Originally Posted by skybluesea View Post
Would anyone be willing to send me photo of mattress installed in AC J seat with your boarding pass (name blocked out) that I can include, should I proceed to formal complaint - thanks...

ps...block out seat and sequence number too otherwise AC could find out who you are.
I doubt I still have my boarding pass, but I'm happy to give you my name, seat number, flight, booking reference, ticket number, etc.
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Old Mar 15, 19, 10:14 pm
  #1417  
 
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Originally Posted by canadiancow View Post
For the record, the one I bought and linked worked great.

I doubt I still have my boarding pass, but I'm happy to give you my name, seat number, flight, booking reference, ticket number, etc.
Thank you, should the time come, most useful.

and despite @emma69 useful counsel, more to making complaint than actual success- causing AC to defend itself in public forums equally important.

and would be highly instructive for AirCanada to publicly respond Signature Service inflatable lie flat seats are NOT core to service offer. So while AC legal may consider this a sufficient defense to CB, how would AC marketing department react to a legal defense that makes the entire J product diminished to every competitor offering, in essence, admitting we have a lousy product, and do not guarantee our offering in future advertising.

Good luck with all that AC.
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Old Mar 16, 19, 1:01 am
  #1418  
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
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Had my first deflated seat yesterday. Only the section between the headrest and the lumbar deflated. SD and I ran the full gamet of possible reset options. After that, the SD provided some economy pillows which filled the dip in the seat and I slept no problem. No white form and I forgot to ask upon landing as I was rushing for a connection (we were already delayed due to maitenance issues in the baggage hold). Should I email AC about my issue or leave it?
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Old Mar 16, 19, 2:26 am
  #1419  
 
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Originally Posted by marchelli View Post
Had my first deflated seat yesterday. Only the section between the headrest and the lumbar deflated. SD and I ran the full gamet of possible reset options. After that, the SD provided some economy pillows which filled the dip in the seat and I slept no problem. No white form and I forgot to ask upon landing as I was rushing for a connection (we were already delayed due to maitenance issues in the baggage hold). Should I email AC about my issue or leave it?
Depends how upset you will get when they imply that it may not have happened as of course otherwise you would’ve received compensation form. Then you can play email tag with you insisting you get compensation and they may grudgingly offer it as a special exception. It does depend on who you get at customer service.
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Old Mar 16, 19, 2:31 am
  #1420  
 
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Originally Posted by marchelli View Post
Had my first deflated seat yesterday. Only the section between the headrest and the lumbar deflated. SD and I ran the full gamet of possible reset options. After that, the SD provided some economy pillows which filled the dip in the seat and I slept no problem. No white form and I forgot to ask upon landing as I was rushing for a connection (we were already delayed due to maitenance issues in the baggage hold). Should I email AC about my issue or leave it?
I have been explicitly told the following:
As you've experienced this in past flights, if you could kindly provide us with the OBC number from the form provided to you by the inflight crew, we will follow up with our Budget Office.
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Old Mar 16, 19, 2:39 am
  #1421  
 
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The law of average worked against me tonight.

I woke up saying to myself "so THAT'S what it feels like!"

I only woke on final descent so did not seek compensation, but did inform SD Julia and asked her to log it. I consider myself very lucky that my first experience was the end of a TCON and not the beginning of a TPAC.

AC309, 4K. Not sure of the fin, sorry.
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Old Mar 16, 19, 3:44 am
  #1422  
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Originally Posted by WaytoomuchEurope View Post
AC309, 4K. Not sure of the fin, sorry.
Friday, March 15, 2019
AC309 YULYVR
C-GHPT
FIN 802
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Old Mar 16, 19, 4:17 am
  #1423  
 
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Urge you complain to ac even if minor deflate

Originally Posted by lallied View Post
and they may grudgingly offer it as a special exception.
So, it would appear everyone is a “special exception” - thank you posting as another worthwhile perspective emerges.

Think about intent of this statement- it is actually a threat- take this offer or leave it as we are treating you as a special case, which AC knows to be patently false. arguably this is also form of micro-advertising to entice acceptance of a credit towards future AC flight...i.e. another promotion for AC product and will need to go back to Competition Act/Regs as another bit talks about this kind of deceptive offer as reviewable behavior.

reminder, please complain to AC directly even if you don’t care about compensation- AC may face disclosure of all complaints received and the more on their books, the greater the pressure will cause for speedier action.

And with MAX, AC has plenty on their hands to make excuse fixing J seats lower priority/ my response to AC if they try this nonsense “if I can chew gum and walk at the same time, The mighty AC certainly can”.

Last edited by skybluesea; Mar 16, 19 at 5:52 am
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Old Mar 16, 19, 4:34 am
  #1424  
 
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Originally Posted by skybluesea View Post


So, it would appear everyone is a “special exception” - thank you posting as another worthwhile perspective emerges.

Think about intent of this statement- it is actually a threat- take this offer or leave it as we are treating you as a special case, which AC knows to be patently false. arguably this is also form of micro-advertising to entice acceptance of a credit towards future AC flight...i.e. another promotion for AC product and will need to go back to Competition Act/Regs as another bit talks about this kind of deceptive offer as reviewable behavior.

reminder, please complain to AC directly even if you don’t care about compensation- posting here will not form basis of credible evidence- AC may face disclosure of all complaints received and the more on their books, the greater the pressure will cause for speedier action.

And with MAX, AC has plenty on their hands to make excuse fixing J seats lower priority/ my response to AC if they try this nonsense “if I can chew gum and walk at the same time, The mighty AC certainly can”.
Well, no, actually, it’s a implication that you are not being transparent. (Aka lying)
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Old Mar 16, 19, 5:59 am
  #1425  
 
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Originally Posted by lallied View Post
Well, no, actually, it’s a implication that you are not being transparent. (Aka lying)
well, You are quite likely right, although I don’t have evidence to make such an accusation in public - but I believe AC has this information that others in an official capacity can get to.

unfortunately, this official route can take a very long time, that is why it’s so important that not just complaints for compensation but even more public pressure is needed otherwise AirCanada will just treat this as a cost of doing business.
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