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Deflategate; new executive pods deflating in-flight

Deflategate; new executive pods deflating in-flight

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Old Jun 19, 19, 8:24 am   -   Wikipost
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Last edit by: canadiancow
Wiki Link
Click here to go to a picture of the White Compensation Form and its stub


View Deflated Seat History Here (Database for submitted occurrences)
Enter New Deflated Seat Occurrence Here (Submit one if you have experienced deflated seat and it will show up in the database above)
----
From post #49 in this thread, here's one potential way to (re)inflate an AC seat:
  • Go the home screen "Your Seat". (find this on the seat side panel; not the main video screen)
  • Hold the top left hand corner "Air Canada" (with AC logo) for 3 seconds. Updated (Apr 9 18): may need to hold for as long as 45 seconds for key pad to appear
  • Dial pad shows up - hit 3-2-1.
  • Press "Reset Lumbar Support"
Note that this method has not met 100% success so YMMV.
A better method is for a crew member to use the reset switch under the seat, on the aisle side.

Compensation offers (green/white sheet completed)
40K AE- Apr 18 (50% back of the J class one way redemption)
2018 Jun - $500 coupon
2018 Sep $1,000 eCoupon or 40K AP (P fare TPAC)
2018 Sep $150 eCoupon (P fare TPAC) (no change on protest)

Compensation offers (no green/white sheet completed)
100K - May 5 (C$150 eCoupon; was moved to a functioning seat after meal service)
2017 Sept - 8,000 AE miles - reported via complaint web page after realizing it was a faulty seat, not standard discomfort; Asked for return of eUps but they declined.
2017 Nov & 2018 Feb - $500 coupons both times (second time on protest that $500 had been offered the previous time)
2018 Sep. $250 coupon (on a paid J TATL).
2018 Nov - $500 eCoupon (J TATL)

Standard eCoupon compensation offers (no haggling; following a recurring pattern)
~10+ hours: $1000
Long TPAC (TPE-YVR)

~6 to ~10 hours: $500
Short TPAC (NRT-YVR)
TATL
South America: YYZ-GRU

less than ~6 hours: 300
TCON


Have a Service Director (SD) That Is Giving You the Case of the Shrugs? Like the real life version of this ASCII emoji -> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ?

No success with the SD and/or crew rectifying your deflated seat and you can't be/aren't accommodated to another J seat? If you asked for a compensation form and the SD says they have no idea what you are talking about, you can use the below picture of the stub portion to help freshen their memory (better than nothing)...

Please note that for the longest time, the "Green Compensation Form" version was used, and there have been recent reports of the "White Compensation Form" replacing the Green version. Reports here have indicated that the two forms are virtually identical except for the colour.

Here is a snapshot of the full form, courtesy of canadiancow

https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/30914753-post1458.html
Originally Posted by canadiancow View Post
I've been meaning to post this for a while. This is the whole form.

The left section and the tear-off piece were filled out entirely by the SD.

My name was filled out by the SD.

I filled out my address, email, status, Aeroplan number, phone, and chose which type of compensation I wanted.

The main part of the form goes back to the SD, and the passenger keeps the little piece on the right side.



This is only the stub portion, courtesy of lallied
Originally Posted by lallied View Post



There’s a main section which the SD fills in and detachable section you get to keep. Each has a reference number. It looks like the green one to me except it’s white.




Example
Mattress pads purchased and listed in this thread
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Old Mar 14, 19, 12:46 pm
  #1381  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Originally Posted by emma69 View Post
By all means write to the Bureau about false advertising, ditto with your comments relating to Transport Canada, but right now you don't seem to care about that, you seem to be using this to leverage Air Canada to compensate you.
@emma69
Interesting, yet I’m considering the complaint to Transport Canada independently of the CB & ASC which are contract issues that I must first make good faith efforts with AC to resolve - just contract mgmt best-practice.

Unfortunately, you are sadly mistaken with “don’t seem to care” so pending TC complaint reflects 40 years in aviation starting in primary operational roles and proceeding to have senior safety roles across modes and now teach SMS/SEMS.

If, and I stress, if AC operating unsafely, I consider it my duty to request investigation. As we learned with MAX, are we willing to bet the deflated seats or the mattresses blocking aisles aren’t real issues, only Transport Canada can make that determination.

I may be routinely obnoxious on many fronts, as many on this forum will attest, but I know where safety ranks in my decision making...what about you?
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Old Mar 14, 19, 1:15 pm
  #1382  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: YYC
Programs: AC*SE100K
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Here is the response from the Canadian Transportation Agency, which I think skybluesea suggested would be the response:

While the Agency has authority over a wide range of air transportation related services, its authority does not extend to issues related to quality of service. Upon review of your complaint, it would appear that the issue you have raised regarding deflating business class pod seats is a quality of service matter.

As to the issue of non functioning lavatories, the Agency's authority does not extend to issues related to health, safety or security. It would appear that this portion of your complaint falls under the responsibility of Transport Canada Civil Aviation.

Therefore, you may wish to forward your concerns to Transport Canada for their consideration and direct reply to you at the following link:
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/menu.htm

Alternatively, you may contact them by email at [email protected]
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Old Mar 14, 19, 2:31 pm
  #1383  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
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Programs: Aeroplan, UA Mileage Plus, AMEX Cobalt
Posts: 114
I wonder what is worse...

Deflategate, or the awkwardness of waking up the entire J class cabin while trying to recline your classic pod on the A333 and 763.

Rock concerts usually reach 120 decibels, but the classic pod is able to reach in excess of 200 decibels! Your seat neighbours will love this new alarm clock!
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Old Mar 14, 19, 3:22 pm
  #1384  
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Originally Posted by canadiancow View Post
The fact that you equate "priority baggage handling" (which is often not delivered), "exclusive boarding lanes" (which is often not delivered), and "lie-flat bed with lumbar support", is quite telling.

I'm the first to say that my own inflatable mattress solves all my issues. But I feel like you're saying "lounge access" is equivalent to "eventually getting your destination", which is ludicrous.

So 20% of the cabin experienced deceptive advertising is acceptable? I'm not sure I'd accept 0.1%, but I certainly don't think 20% is reasonable.

My second last Signature flight had 60% of my party of 5 with deflated seats. I have no idea how many others didn't even notice.

So it's okay for companies to do bad things to thousands of people? Being properly compensated is a self-serving component of this, but I want them to stop the misleading advertising. "Working to fix it" is great, but that doesn't mean their advertising isn't misleading NOW.
Nowhere did I say I personally think this is an acceptable product, resolution or situation. I simply looked at it from the perspective of a 'false or misleading [advert] in a material respect'. The airline is not promising something substantially different to what it is delivering (it is not a deliberate bait and switch) it is simply that what they are delivering is substandard and defective. In the same way if you bought a pair of (for want of a better analogy) a pair of Nike Air trainers, and they were defective, it wouldn't be false or misleading advertising by Nike, it would be a defective product, covered by other consumer rights. Even if they knew 20% of their trainers wouldn't inflate consistently over time, it still wouldn't be false or misleading, since the product, as designed, when working correctly, matches the advertising. It isn't to say the company is right, morally, or under other legislation, just that this isn't the right provision to die on the hill for.

In terms of what is more important to whom, and the weighting to apply, it is entirely subjective. I know someone who sleeps like a log sitting bolt upright on a plane, so doesn't really care about the onboard product, but hates lines like you wouldn't believe, so priority check in, security and boarding would probably matter to her more. For a shorter flight the lounge experience is a significant part to me, especially if I have a longer connection where I may spend more time in the lounge than in the air, since I can eat, have a few drinks, and then the flight passes by pretty quickly. For my upcoming Transpacific, which I booked AC before I was aware of this issue, you better believe the seat is damn important to me (and I am pondering my camping mat options). Again, what I feel personally, and what I understand of objective criteria are different.
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Old Mar 14, 19, 3:26 pm
  #1385  
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Originally Posted by skybluesea View Post


@emma69
Interesting, yet I’m considering the complaint to Transport Canada independently of the CB & ASC which are contract issues that I must first make good faith efforts with AC to resolve - just contract mgmt best-practice.

Unfortunately, you are sadly mistaken with “don’t seem to care” so pending TC complaint reflects 40 years in aviation starting in primary operational roles and proceeding to have senior safety roles across modes and now teach SMS/SEMS.

If, and I stress, if AC operating unsafely, I consider it my duty to request investigation. As we learned with MAX, are we willing to bet the deflated seats or the mattresses blocking aisles aren’t real issues, only Transport Canada can make that determination.

I may be routinely obnoxious on many fronts, as many on this forum will attest, but I know where safety ranks in my decision making...what about you?
The comment about hanging it over AC was related to the Bureau, Advertising has nothing to do with a contract - you don't have to have purchased a product for false advertising rules to apply, and it is independent of any resolution you seek independently from the airline.

The safety issue, I said you are free to write to them. I am not sure why you have not if you feel strongly. The airline won't admit infractions in a written reply to you, so why delay? If they investigate and find no wrong doing, no harm no foul. If they find an issue, surely it is better for that to be found sooner than later.
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Old Mar 14, 19, 10:47 pm
  #1386  
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Programs: AC SE
Posts: 271
I dunno. Never heard of that

Just flew YVR-PEK yesterday. I asked the SD “have you guys found any solution to the deflating seats?” Him and another FA looked at each other and almost in unison said, oh , we’re not familiar with this aircraft, never ever heard of this issue. I continued to educate them that it wasn’t just on the 777. I highly doubt if he’s doing overseas flights that he has never heard of this proble. He seems surprised when I said it was the same seat as the 787. It was BS.
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Old Mar 14, 19, 11:43 pm
  #1387  
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Originally Posted by Chowtime View Post
Just flew YVR-PEK yesterday. I asked the SD “have you guys found any solution to the deflating seats?” Him and another FA looked at each other and almost in unison said, oh , we’re not familiar with this aircraft, never ever heard of this issue. I continued to educate them that it wasn’t just on the 777. I highly doubt if he’s doing overseas flights that he has never heard of this proble. He seems surprised when I said it was the same seat as the 787. It was BS.

@Chowtime
I think this “not telling the truth” is a new strategy, and I will call it that, rather than use the other word.

I posted upthread about the unpleasant SD I had on my last TPAC. It was a 13 hour flight and we were talking about the issue of deflated seats. She was absolutely insistent that she never had a deflated seat on any of her flights and has never given out the white form.

She is senior in terms of years and experience and yet every other SD I’ve flown with I the past year for sure, when there was a deflated seat on my flight, they all said they’d seen it before. A few had some other comments as well.

Since I fly more than once a year, and like others here, I am statistically more likely to have the AC stay-flat experience, and since many AC employees from all parts of the company read FT, you would have to be living under a rock not to know, or maybe be a FOTSG SD. I would not expect all FAs to know.

I am also curious to see if posters here encounter more SDs who also claim that the form were not loaded.


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Old Mar 15, 19, 12:22 am
  #1388  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
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Originally Posted by 24left View Post



@Chowtime
I think this “not telling the truth” is a new strategy, and I will call it that, rather than use the other word.

I posted upthread about the unpleasant SD I had on my last TPAC. It was a 13 hour flight and we were talking about the issue of deflated seats. She was absolutely insistent that she never had a deflated seat on any of her flights and has never given out the white form.

She is senior in terms of years and experience and yet every other SD I’ve flown with I the past year for sure, when there was a deflated seat on my flight, they all said they’d seen it before. A few had some other comments as well.

Since I fly more than once a year, and like others here, I am statistically more likely to have the AC stay-flat experience, and since many AC employees from all parts of the company read FT, you would have to be living under a rock not to know, or maybe be a FOTSG SD. I would not expect all FAs to know.

I am also curious to see if posters here encounter more SDs who also claim that the form were not loaded.


These types of ‘gotcha’ insinuations are an interesting turn: a presumption that others are lying (is that the word?) as a deliberate strategy. Could it be possible that the SD had never dealt with a passenger complaint for this issue? Chances are good that some of the seats were deflated on flights she worked, which is not to say the customers noticed or brought it to the attention of the crew.

What could have been the benefit to her for misleading customers? Perhaps she was insistent because she was being honest.

Curious that people have morphed from blaming the executive ranks for misleading the public to now suggesting the rank & file employees are participating in the obfuscation.

I trust that future AC J bookings have dried right up...?
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Old Mar 15, 19, 2:32 am
  #1389  
 
Join Date: May 2012
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Originally Posted by CZAMFlyer View Post


These types of ‘gotcha’ insinuations are an interesting turn: a presumption that others are lying (is that the word?) as a deliberate strategy. Could it be possible that the SD had never dealt with a passenger complaint for this issue? Chances are good that some of the seats were deflated on flights she worked, which is not to say the customers noticed or brought it to the attention of the crew.

What could have been the benefit to her for misleading customers? Perhaps she was insistent because she was being honest.

Curious that people have morphed from blaming the executive ranks for misleading the public to now suggesting the rank & file employees are participating in the obfuscation.

I trust that future AC J bookings have dried right up...?

As always in life it’s likely multifactorial, miscommunication, misinterpretation and misunderstanding. I for example had someone swear to me that had been specifically told never to issue a comp form if a solution was found before landing. Even if 13 or the 14 hrs were spent in a deflated seat. When I wrote in in high dudgeon was told explicitly that the directive was the opposite - always compensate even if moved after an hour or two.

Is anyone being deliberately opaque? Poster, flight crew or AC ? No. Are they sometimes more helpful / less PA? Absolutely.

I just spent days on phone trying to get home and was assured by 3 agents impossible to change. Until I got a 4th who said no seats now you should have called earlier and we would have changed.

Its life (at least one spent largely on board)

Last edited by lallied; Mar 15, 19 at 3:01 am
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Old Mar 15, 19, 3:14 am
  #1390  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Originally Posted by jmottle View Post
Here is the response from the Canadian Transportation Agency, which I think skybluesea suggested would be the response:

While the Agency has authority over a wide range of air transportation related services, its authority does not extend to issues related to quality of service. Upon review of your complaint, it would appear that the issue you have raised regarding deflating business class pod seats is a quality of service matter.

As to the issue of non functioning lavatories, the Agency's authority does not extend to issues related to health, safety or security. It would appear that this portion of your complaint falls under the responsibility of Transport Canada Civil Aviation.

Therefore, you may wish to forward your concerns to Transport Canada for their consideration and direct reply to you at the following link:
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/menu.htm

Alternatively, you may contact them by email at [email protected]
@jmottle
yup, CTA cannot deal with service issues - but public mis-representation that leads traveler to enter into a contract raises questions of market manipulation, and whether contract valid in the first place.

And sorry, just arrived in Bangkok, exhausted so will email you later.

ps... I suppose to get Altitude benefits, folks are willing to tolerate all kinds of things like spending more money and hassle on a mattress, go figure… but some might like camping as reminder of their youth...no thanks

Last edited by skybluesea; Mar 15, 19 at 5:36 am
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Old Mar 15, 19, 8:31 am
  #1391  
 
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Originally Posted by Chowtime View Post
Just flew YVR-PEK yesterday. I asked the SD “have you guys found any solution to the deflating seats?” Him and another FA looked at each other and almost in unison said, oh , we’re not familiar with this aircraft, never ever heard of this issue. I continued to educate them that it wasn’t just on the 777. I highly doubt if he’s doing overseas flights that he has never heard of this proble. He seems surprised when I said it was the same seat as the 787. It was BS.
Ive had the same response, they do somehow magically know how to access the service menus to reset the seat though when it happens. I guess someone in maintenance told them. It's almost like they have been coached.
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Old Mar 15, 19, 8:36 am
  #1392  
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Originally Posted by jmottle View Post
Ive had the same response, they do somehow magically know how to access the service menus to reset the seat though when it happens. I guess someone in maintenance told them. It's almost like they have been coached.
@jmottle
Magically, others never heard of or saw deflated seats. (Sent you a PM)
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Old Mar 15, 19, 9:13 am
  #1393  
 
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Thanks all - this is most useful fodder for possible CB complaint (much research still to do as I don’t treat making a formal public complaint lightly).

so, if AirCanada is actively coaching staff to deny these failures contrary to advertisement that say what they do, this may no longer fall under simple negligence “yeah, just learned of it and dealing with it”.

Instead, may become a case of willful public manipulation that AC actively knew advertising was false and taking broad corporate steps to avoid changing the deceptive advertising. And I fully agree with @emma69 and expect CB will wish to find settlement, but with settlement comes evidence for suit against AC directly. Plus, public wrong-doing gets media attention...good thing semi-retired so have more time to apply advocacy experience here.

and with the CB alerted to this possible internal communication, they could ask AC for documents on on what staff should say to customers. Those pesky emails to SDs may come back to bite AC for not adding prominent caveats to their advertising.

And since have cut-paste bits of my complaint letter into this Thread, so AC if your reading, I’m debating whether I should sign CB complaint myself, or have it reviewed/ sent under cover from my solicitor?

ps...settlement 2nd best solution, AC just get seats fixed now.


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Old Mar 15, 19, 9:21 am
  #1394  
 
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Originally Posted by jmottle View Post
Ive had the same response, they do somehow magically know how to access the service menus to reset the seat though when it happens. I guess someone in maintenance told them. It's almost like they have been coached.
Hmm. That’s a bit of a coincidence. or not
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Old Mar 15, 19, 9:35 am
  #1395  
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Originally Posted by skybluesea View Post
......
so, if AirCanada is actively coaching staff to deny these failures contrary to advertisement that say what they do, this may no longer fall under simple negligence “yeah, just learned of it and dealing with it”........

I have no proof AC is coaching the crew. I would think that is unprofessional and potentially a mistake. But who knows what the crews say to each other.

I and others have posted our recent experiences, and comments we heard from crews, some claiming they never had a deflated seat on their flight or ever handed out a form, or never heard about the deflated seat issues or they forgot to load the compensation forms.

There are far too many incidents of deflated seats. There are records in logbooks which SDs get to see when they are adding their own notes. There are maintenance people who board some flights to try and fix seats, there are those beautifully colourful #AirCanadaCamping inflatables and there is FT, for those crew who happen to lurk. This issue has also been posted on AC employees own internal Yammer page.

Is it possible some of the thousands of AC cabin crew have not experienced a deflate, like on a narrow body or if they are new hires or if they are not on widebody routes all the time. Whatever.

I guess they've also never seen one of the emails that are sent out with the compensation....for the deflated seats...they never heard of.
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