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Deflategate; new executive pods deflating in-flight

Deflategate; new executive pods deflating in-flight

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Old Mar 21, 19, 9:03 am   -   Wikipost
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Last edit by: yyznomad
Wiki Link
Click here to go to a picture of the White Compensation Form and its stub


View Deflated Seat History Here (Database for submitted occurrences)
Enter New Deflated Seat Occurrence Here (Submit one if you have experienced deflated seat and it will show up in the database above)
----
From post #49 in this thread, here's one potential way to (re)inflate an AC seat:
  • Go the home screen "Your Seat". (find this on the seat side panel; not the main video screen)
  • Hold the top left hand corner "Air Canada" (with AC logo) for 3 seconds. Updated (Apr 9 18): may need to hold for as long as 45 seconds for key pad to appear
  • Dial pad shows up - hit 3-2-1.
  • Press "Reset Lumbar Support"
Note that this method has not met 100% success so YMMV.
A better method is for a crew member to use the reset switch under the seat, on the aisle side.

Compensation offers (green/white sheet completed)
40K AE- Apr 18 (50% back of the J class one way redemption)
2018 Jun - $500 coupon
2018 Sep $1,000 eCoupon or 40K AP (P fare TPAC)
2018 Sep $150 eCoupon (P fare TPAC) (no change on protest)

Compensation offers (no green/white sheet completed)
100K - May 5 (C$150 eCoupon; was moved to a functioning seat after meal service)
2017 Sept - 8,000 AE miles - reported via complaint web page after realizing it was a faulty seat, not standard discomfort; Asked for return of eUps but they declined.
2017 Nov & 2018 Feb - $500 coupons both times (second time on protest that $500 had been offered the previous time)
2018 Sep. $250 coupon (on a paid J TATL).
2018 Nov - $500 eCoupon (J TATL)



Have a Service Director (SD) That Is Giving You the Case of the Shrugs? Like the real life version of this ASCII emoji -> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ?

No success with the SD and/or crew rectifying your deflated seat and you can't be/aren't accommodated to another J seat? If you asked for a compensation form and the SD says they have no idea what you are talking about, you can use the below picture of the stub portion to help freshen their memory (better than nothing)...

Please note that for the longest time, the "Green Compensation Form" version was used, and there have been recent reports of the "White Compensation Form" replacing the Green version. Reports here have indicated that the two forms are virtually identical except for the colour.

Here is a snapshot of the full form, courtesy of canadiancow

https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/30914753-post1458.html
Originally Posted by canadiancow View Post
I've been meaning to post this for a while. This is the whole form.

The left section and the tear-off piece were filled out entirely by the SD.

My name was filled out by the SD.

I filled out my address, email, status, Aeroplan number, phone, and chose which type of compensation I wanted.

The main part of the form goes back to the SD, and the passenger keeps the little piece on the right side.



This is only the stub portion, courtesy of lallied
Originally Posted by lallied View Post



There’s a main section which the SD fills in and detachable section you get to keep. Each has a reference number. It looks like the green one to me except it’s white.




Example
Mattress pads purchased and listed in this thread
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Old Mar 26, 19, 4:26 pm
  #1501  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: I dunno
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Posts: 1,774
In first considering how AC may respond to my false advertising complaint to Advertising Standards Canada, wished to see if the Tariff might apply to deny claim.

International Tariff
B. Classes of service
Certain complimentary products and services are offered depending on class of service or fare brand purchased, such as separate check-in, in-flight entertainment, use of headsets/player, reading material, meals, beverages (some alcoholic), etc. These products and services are amenities and their availability is not guaranteed. No compensation will be offered for their unavailability, including for unavailability of in-flight entertainment and choice of meal.(1) Signature Class service is provided to passengers paying the Signature Class fares for transportation in the Signature Class cabin on certain flights operated by Air Canada Signature Class offers lie-flat seats available on Air Canada aircraft usually used on international flights other than flights to the Caribbean and Mexico. A lie-flat surcharge of $315 applies. [emphasis added]


AC specifically defines a surcharge for lie-flat seats, thus this offering cannot in any way be considered a complementary product or service that is NOT guaranteed. Rather, as AC identifies an incremental charge for such seats, this implies a guarantee and removal of the lie-flat seat, which is the consequence of deflation, is an obvious contractual failure.

Given all this, not sure I even need to go to ASC, and possibly directly to Small Claims court as AC does not get to unilaterally decide compensation level, nor gets to say what is "fair or consistent" as this is subject to a new client/supplier agreement. However, AC could argue that the lie-flat seat is still being provided but in deflated form - well, this might be right, technically, but I would be most pleased to see a written AC response that lie-flat is defined pretty much as a "park bench". This would be contrary to AC advertising that identifies the mattress as inflatable and adjustable, that is also absent of any caveats footnotes, etc. of the possible seat failure. Such a written AC reply would be most helpful in moving my complaint forward to ASC.

Would AC really want to issue a defense that its "lie-flat seat do NOT mean either reliably flat or reasonably comfortable" for broad consumer awareness?

your constructive feedback/perspectives welcome...
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Old Mar 26, 19, 5:30 pm
  #1502  
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Programs: AC SE
Posts: 2,352
In 1A on AC756 SFO-YYZ right now and no deflategate!

Fingers crossed for 5K on AC846 YYZ-MUC in a couple hours.
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Old Mar 26, 19, 10:14 pm
  #1503  
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
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Originally Posted by capedreamer View Post
In 1A on AC756 SFO-YYZ right now and no deflategate!

Fingers crossed for 5K on AC846 YYZ-MUC in a couple hours.
Guess two in a row would have been too much to ask.

5K on AC846 on 3/26 (C-FITW) is deflated.
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Old Mar 26, 19, 10:33 pm
  #1504  
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FIN 853 seat 1D deflated half way through YYZ-SFO, walking up the UA GS occupant.

SD tried to say AC was still the best, in THIS context

They were out of the real compensation forms, but it was definitely logged.
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Old Mar 26, 19, 10:56 pm
  #1505  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: YVR
Programs: AC SEMM
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Originally Posted by kthpence View Post
I'm flying on 2 AC flights next week in J (first time in AC J, looking forward to it), but now I'm quite nervous after reading these reports ... how common is this issue on the 787s and 77Ws? I.e. is it normal for at least one seat to deflate on every flight, or is it much more rare than that?
I've experienced seat deflations on 2 of the last 4 flights over the pacific since February. Not sure about other passengers on the same flight - I question how many of them aren't even aware their seats had deflated. It is a serious problem and another unnecessary worry while flying !
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Old Mar 26, 19, 11:33 pm
  #1506  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Originally Posted by Argonaut1000 View Post
I've experienced seat deflations on 2 of the last 4 flights over the pacific since February. Not sure about other passengers on the same flight - I question how many of them aren't even aware their seats had deflated. It is a serious problem and another unnecessary worry while flying !
@Argonaut1000

50% Error Rate

May I please ask at what Error Rate is this so serious for you that any of the fine and intense TPAC competitors becomes preferred?

ps...AC net income over last 2 years about $2 billion- would appear AC shareholders do NOT see this as a serious matter warranting serious intervention.

Last edited by skybluesea; Mar 27, 19 at 1:58 am
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Old Mar 27, 19, 12:10 am
  #1507  
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Programs: AC 50K
Posts: 52
Spoke with an SD friend of mine today who said that she is always able to fix the seat by using the under seat toggle switch to turn the seat off. Specifically she said, “you need to leave it off for a minimum of 10 minutes to allow it to reset fully”. Haven’t tried this yet, but she said it works every time for her. Perhaps someone who files wide body J more than I do could give this a shot.
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Old Mar 27, 19, 12:39 am
  #1508  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Programs: Frontier 100K, AC SE100K, BA Gold, WN A-/CP, Hyatt Globalist
Posts: 3,401
neither the power reset nor the rondelle reset are capable of repairing a physical puncture in the air mattress.

punctures/defects in the seams are the ONLY reason these seats are deflating. they do not deflate on their own, nor is there a "rock hard bench" setting 50 levels below the minimum setting on the 'softer, firmer' scale.

a "fix" might seem to work for 10min, an hour, or a couple hours. but the pump shuts back off. I assume it shuts down because of an internal maximum duty cycle/protection circuit to prevent the motor from damage/overheating.
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Last edited by expert7700; Mar 27, 19 at 12:56 am
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Old Mar 27, 19, 2:20 am
  #1509  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Originally Posted by expert7700 View Post
neither the power reset nor the rondelle reset are capable of repairing a physical puncture in the air mattress.

punctures/defects in the seams are the ONLY reason these seats are deflating. they do not deflate on their own, nor is there a "rock hard bench" setting 50 levels below the minimum setting on the 'softer, firmer' scale.

a "fix" might seem to work for 10min, an hour, or a couple hours. but the pump shuts back off. I assume it shuts down because of an internal maximum duty cycle/protection circuit to prevent the motor from damage/overheating.
So why might AC specify this seat in the acquisition program, possibly to achieve weight-savings of an air-filled mattress, over a permanent mattress that pretty much every J class I have flown last few years has been fitted with? And while AC may say this provides for comfort adjustment depending on individual traveler, clearly some testing had to be done initially to determine how all this would work, which may have also had the manufacturer specify Mean Time Between Failure.

And since AC cannot make performance claims in their advertising that are NOT based on testing (Competition Act), AC will have records both on original acquisition specs, + possibly subsequent testing to figure out how best to deal with this. Yet, we still have continuous AC advertising that says NOTHING WRONG.

Have had suggestion that I should swear affidavit to the role AC advertising has had in my purchase decision on the flight in question that deflated - something interesting to think about although difficult to be factually accurate about advertising that goes so far to make a public truth statement.
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Old Mar 27, 19, 12:14 pm
  #1510  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: YYC
Programs: AC*SE100K
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Another update on my end. Went into the Concierge office on my last trip and explained the issue. They did not seem too impressed how the overall situation was being handled. They were unaware of the seat issues as well. I also replied back to the standard $500 voucher email indicating I was not happy and asked for a call back and at least an acknowledgement of what I sent them and not the same BS boilerplate. These two actions netted two things. From the concierge complaint side I got a voicemail from a VIP/Global Concierge rep to discuss. I have yet however to speak with him live. I also got a reply back from the Customer Relations Executive Center with an increase to the compensation $XXXX, but I still feel it's borderline a slap in the face given the situation, the fact I had no lavatory for 8 hours and how much I paid for that J ticket. Regardless here is the letter I received:

Thank you for your email, which was passed along to us in Customer Relations. I am very sorry you have experienced multiple broken seats and washrooms while traveling in the business class cabin, the latest being on our flight from XXXX

Unfortunately, this has been a recurring issue from the manufacture, even when new seats are installed. The cushions leaking on the Super Diamond seats is happening on the B787 and B777 aircraft. A solution for this issue was expected from the cushion manufacturer in December 2018, but due to some certification issues (Boeing and Government), the availability of the solution has been delayed to April 2019.

The available options we have right now are to replace seats, which we do at every opportunity and to have the cabin crew reset the seat. We know a comfortable seat makes a journey more pleasant, and I regret we continue to disappoint on this matter.

As a gesture of goodwill, I have provided an eCoupon below, which I hope is helpful on a future flight.

I would also like to take this opportunity to thank you for your loyalty to Air Canada, as your business has been very important to us.
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Old Mar 27, 19, 1:10 pm
  #1511  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
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So AC wishes goodwill- seriously 😫

good of luck with how you proceed - and please advise your progress.

SBS
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Old Mar 27, 19, 1:19 pm
  #1512  
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
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Originally Posted by jmottle View Post
...the fact I had no lavatory for 8 hours and how much I paid for that J ticket.
Apologies if I missed this (I went back through your last few posts in this thread but didn't see anything), but there were no working lavatories on an 8 hour flight? How's that possible?
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Old Mar 27, 19, 1:23 pm
  #1513  
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Originally Posted by marchelli View Post
Spoke with an SD friend of mine today who said that she is always able to fix the seat by using the under seat toggle switch to turn the seat off. Specifically she said, “you need to leave it off for a minimum of 10 minutes to allow it to reset fully”. Haven’t tried this yet, but she said it works every time for her. Perhaps someone who files wide body J more than I do could give this a shot.
@marchelli
Respectfully, no.
Perhaps the comments should be included in this thread.

Weird or just plain incorrect things FAs/SDs have said while on board

Originally Posted by expert7700 View Post
neither the power reset nor the rondelle reset are capable of repairing a physical puncture in the air mattress.

punctures/defects in the seams are the ONLY reason these seats are deflating. they do not deflate on their own, nor is there a "rock hard bench" setting 50 levels below the minimum setting on the 'softer, firmer' scale.

.........
And when explaining the puncture in the bladder to SDs and FAs on many recent flights, it seems cabin crew have received different information as to the issue with the seats. What seems to be evident is that many have no idea what the cause of the deflating is, so I make sure to educate them.

On those occasions where a SD has spoken with the maintenance guys, they may be told the technical details. Otherwise, to many, it's just a deflated balloon. All that matters to them at that point is does the J pax need to be moved to another seat and is another seat available.

@expert7700 I have saved a copy of your post and the next time a SD says "I was not aware", I will encourage them to become aware.

Originally Posted by jmottle View Post
Another update on my end. Went into the Concierge office on my last trip and explained the issue. They did not seem too impressed how the overall situation was being handled. They were unaware of the seat issues as well. I also replied back to the standard $500 voucher email indicating I was not happy and asked for a call back and at least an acknowledgement of what I sent them and not the same BS boilerplate. These two actions netted two things. From the concierge complaint side I got a voicemail from a VIP/Global Concierge rep to discuss. I have yet however to speak with him live. I also got a reply back from the Customer Relations Executive Center with an increase to the compensation $XXXX, but I still feel it's borderline a slap in the face given the situation, the fact I had no lavatory for 8 hours and how much I paid for that J ticket. Regardless here is the letter I received:

Thank you for your email, which was passed along to us in Customer Relations. I am very sorry you have experienced multiple broken seats and washrooms while traveling in the business class cabin, the latest being on our flight from XXXX

Unfortunately, this has been a recurring issue from the manufacture, even when new seats are installed. The cushions leaking on the Super Diamond seats is happening on the B787 and B777 aircraft. A solution for this issue was expected from the cushion manufacturer in December 2018, but due to some certification issues (Boeing and Government), the availability of the solution has been delayed to April 2019.

The available options we have right now are to replace seats, which we do at every opportunity and to have the cabin crew reset the seat. We know a comfortable seat makes a journey more pleasant, and I regret we continue to disappoint on this matter.

As a gesture of goodwill, I have provided an eCoupon below, which I hope is helpful on a future flight.

I would also like to take this opportunity to thank you for your loyalty to Air Canada, as your business has been very important to us
.
@jmottle
I am glad to hear that the hassle of chasing after management and the people at the Exec Centre worked out for you this time. Perhaps my advice was helpful.

And along with my own email (as posted upthread) and yours, I will also use them as references - not just for future stay-flats but for educating cabin crew.

*****

We all know airlines need to differentiate their premium cabins and some airlines do it with better or different offerings for meal service and amenities, and unique custom-designed seats (e.g. SQ, QR, UA and possibly AC).

I and others have posted about the seats we've flown on other airlines, with actual lie flats, and bonus - they do not deflate........because they do not inflate.

I have no idea who at AC and Boeing thought inflating mechanism in an aircraft seat was a good idea, nor do I know how it was tested. (although some time in the past 2 years, I posted upthread the video of the engineer discussing the seats).

What we here all know is the seat is flawed and it fails to perform as promised.

And indeed @skybluesea reminded us in his post upthread, AC does charge a premium of $300+ for these seats on transcon wide body flights. Perhaps that is how the $300 "compensation" for transcon stay-flat was determined.

That math does not work when you're in pancake-mode for 15 hours to HKG.


In the end, I wonder if AC has learned anything from this issue as it relates to dealing with the poor customer experience as well as training their crews accurately on this issue. It would all make an interesting business school case study.

AC is lucky that only a small percent of its J pax are aware of the problem, and more so all those who have flown across the Pacific in a stay-flat but didn't know the seats are not supposed to be like that. What AC may not yet know is whether any of those who have cut-back their AC J 787/777 flying, or who fly other airlines instead or more often on the longer routes, is having any effect on revenue.

Now that AC is buried under the mess that is Boeing's MAX aircraft, the deflated seats just aren't that important now.
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Last edited by 24left; Mar 27, 19 at 2:08 pm
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Old Mar 27, 19, 2:35 pm
  #1514  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
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Originally Posted by capedreamer View Post
Apologies if I missed this (I went back through your last few posts in this thread but didn't see anything), but there were no working lavatories on an 8 hour flight? How's that possible?
Despite the SD asking AC not to fly the plane, they did so with half the bathrooms in both J and Y inoperable. Due to the reduced functionality and turbulence that made it impossible to stand in line to wait for it to become available, I was never able to use it during the flight. Everyone in J was complaining and the SD had to personally apologize to everyone in J as we were waiting to deplane.
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Old Mar 27, 19, 2:41 pm
  #1515  
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Originally Posted by jmottle View Post
Despite the SD asking AC not to fly the plane, they did so with half the bathrooms in both J and Y inoperable. Due to the reduced functionality and turbulence that made it impossible to stand in line to wait for it to become available, I was never able to use it during the flight. Everyone in J was complaining and the SD had to personally apologize to everyone in J as we were waiting to deplane.
Well at least AC made it like an outdoor park setting...

park bench, check
random poop on the ground, check!
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