[Consolidated] Is this type of routing considered cabotage? (2017 onwards)
Sep 17, 2017, 11:33 pm
#46
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Original Poster
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: SFO
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Posts: 44,324
DOT really says flying origin to destination both in US. If you start in SFO and end in YHZ, the centre wont matter. Unless you start doing throwaway ticketing.
Plus your stop is in YYZ (4h?) and you return to SFO (and we all know you can R/T on the same day).
I say do it. I doubt CBP will give you troube. And I'm sure AC will be ok with it. Just don't be a douche to agents, but be prepared to explain the same story several times lol.
I would expect you will have a hard time with AC a few times, but doubt CBP will care. AC is afraid of DOT, but CBP isn't.
Why dont you test run it once real quick and report?
Plus your stop is in YYZ (4h?) and you return to SFO (and we all know you can R/T on the same day).
I say do it. I doubt CBP will give you troube. And I'm sure AC will be ok with it. Just don't be a douche to agents, but be prepared to explain the same story several times lol.
I would expect you will have a hard time with AC a few times, but doubt CBP will care. AC is afraid of DOT, but CBP isn't.
Why dont you test run it once real quick and report?
Casting aside any implied yet unsolicited lesson in morals, my "advice" is this: don't get caught up in the mundane details. There are common sense rules to follow in our day to day lives. We all understand what those are by now, or at least we should.
Getting all bent over what the interpretation of some arcane regulation may or may not say is no way to live either.
Insofar as cabotage is concerned, the rules are in place to prevent a foreign carrier from transporting planeloads of people between prime domestic markets (UA operating YYZ-YVR or AC entering the JFK-LAX market for example). A single person flying from one city in the US to another via a third point outside the US - for the purpose of a contest in this case - does not violate the spirit of the law. It may or may not be 100% above board, but it does not inflict the damage the cabotage rule was installed to prevent.
I have no legal opinion as I'm not an expert in this matter. But I certainly wouldn't be fretting about such an upcoming trip if I were the OP. If you have to spend considerable effort seeking out an interpretation by reading obscure references - to no avail - I couldn't imagine Sally the harried gate agent in SFO would give one iota of thought to it either. As far as she knows, OP is flying to Toronto, no?
Getting all bent over what the interpretation of some arcane regulation may or may not say is no way to live either.
Insofar as cabotage is concerned, the rules are in place to prevent a foreign carrier from transporting planeloads of people between prime domestic markets (UA operating YYZ-YVR or AC entering the JFK-LAX market for example). A single person flying from one city in the US to another via a third point outside the US - for the purpose of a contest in this case - does not violate the spirit of the law. It may or may not be 100% above board, but it does not inflict the damage the cabotage rule was installed to prevent.
I have no legal opinion as I'm not an expert in this matter. But I certainly wouldn't be fretting about such an upcoming trip if I were the OP. If you have to spend considerable effort seeking out an interpretation by reading obscure references - to no avail - I couldn't imagine Sally the harried gate agent in SFO would give one iota of thought to it either. As far as she knows, OP is flying to Toronto, no?
Massive IRROPS on our second last day resulted in a concierge escort from the inbound into YYZ to the domestic MLL, because we missed our flight.
There, she asked what we wanted, and I had an itinerary for her for the final day
YYZ-BOS-YHZ-YYZ-LAX
She confirmed this was acceptable as a "replacement", i.e. no change of funds in either direction. I agreed.
She got on the phone with res or a help desk or whatever, and came back to say it was booked.
We went to our hotel, then to Hooters.
The next day, we flew YYZ-BOS, no problem.
We went to the United Club, which required exiting and reclearing security. I spilled orange juice on my BOS-YHZ BP there.
So I had to get it reprinted.
The check-in agent (no, it was not possible to do this online) saw my "final destination" from BOS being LAX, and freaked out.
Several other agents were called over as she accused me of "sabotage".
They called the help desk, before a lead (at BOS, possibly station manager?) came over, saw there was 4 hours between landing in Canada (YHZ) and departing Canada (YYZ), and said it was fine, and let me go.
At this point, it became very clear that the system did not care. The agent cared.
However, CBP was waiting for me at the entrance to the aircraft (end of the jet bridge) in BOS, and wanted my passport (though they accepted my NEXUS card, which is pretty unusual for immigration purposes in either direction once you're "targeted"), and then searched my bags.
No other passenger had that treatment. They were there for me.
My conclusion is that AC called them and said "this guy's up to no good".
So forgive me if I'm a little more cautious this time.
As for "telling AC". I'm going to book my tickets through AC.com. All AC metal. If they don't already know what I'm doing, they're stupid.
Sep 18, 2017, 4:33 am
#47
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: YVR
Programs: AC SE 2MM; UA MP Premier Silver; Marriott Bonvoy LT Titanium Elite; Radisson; Avis PC
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Okay my EYWv3 story may predate some of you. So here we go.
Massive IRROPS on our second last day resulted in a concierge escort from the inbound into YYZ to the domestic MLL, because we missed our flight.
There, she asked what we wanted, and I had an itinerary for her for the final day
YYZ-BOS-YHZ-YYZ-LAX
She confirmed this was acceptable as a "replacement", i.e. no change of funds in either direction. I agreed.
She got on the phone with res or a help desk or whatever, and came back to say it was booked.
We went to our hotel, then to Hooters.
The next day, we flew YYZ-BOS, no problem.
We went to the United Club, which required exiting and reclearing security. I spilled orange juice on my BOS-YHZ BP there.
So I had to get it reprinted.
The check-in agent (no, it was not possible to do this online) saw my "final destination" from BOS being LAX, and freaked out.
Several other agents were called over as she accused me of "sabotage".
They called the help desk, before a lead (at BOS, possibly station manager?) came over, saw there was 4 hours between landing in Canada (YHZ) and departing Canada (YYZ), and said it was fine, and let me go.
At this point, it became very clear that the system did not care. The agent cared.
However, CBP was waiting for me at the entrance to the aircraft (end of the jet bridge) in BOS, and wanted my passport (though they accepted my NEXUS card, which is pretty unusual for immigration purposes in either direction once you're "targeted"), and then searched my bags.
No other passenger had that treatment. They were there for me.
My conclusion is that AC called them and said "this guy's up to no good".
So forgive me if I'm a little more cautious this time.
As for "telling AC". I'm going to book my tickets through AC.com. All AC metal. If they don't already know what I'm doing, they're stupid.
Massive IRROPS on our second last day resulted in a concierge escort from the inbound into YYZ to the domestic MLL, because we missed our flight.
There, she asked what we wanted, and I had an itinerary for her for the final day
YYZ-BOS-YHZ-YYZ-LAX
She confirmed this was acceptable as a "replacement", i.e. no change of funds in either direction. I agreed.
She got on the phone with res or a help desk or whatever, and came back to say it was booked.
We went to our hotel, then to Hooters.
The next day, we flew YYZ-BOS, no problem.
We went to the United Club, which required exiting and reclearing security. I spilled orange juice on my BOS-YHZ BP there.
So I had to get it reprinted.
The check-in agent (no, it was not possible to do this online) saw my "final destination" from BOS being LAX, and freaked out.
Several other agents were called over as she accused me of "sabotage".
They called the help desk, before a lead (at BOS, possibly station manager?) came over, saw there was 4 hours between landing in Canada (YHZ) and departing Canada (YYZ), and said it was fine, and let me go.
At this point, it became very clear that the system did not care. The agent cared.
However, CBP was waiting for me at the entrance to the aircraft (end of the jet bridge) in BOS, and wanted my passport (though they accepted my NEXUS card, which is pretty unusual for immigration purposes in either direction once you're "targeted"), and then searched my bags.
No other passenger had that treatment. They were there for me.
My conclusion is that AC called them and said "this guy's up to no good".
So forgive me if I'm a little more cautious this time.
As for "telling AC". I'm going to book my tickets through AC.com. All AC metal. If they don't already know what I'm doing, they're stupid.
Sep 18, 2017, 4:56 am
#48
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: sqrt(-united states of apologist)
Programs: *$ Green
Posts: 5,403
Hmmm. Not the process I would've guessed (clearly), but seems like it was all ok in the end.
Still think that overall this might be AC afraid of DOT, and CBP interested because of the erratic itinerary (likely alerted by AC).
Oh, one thing I wanted to say, you probably want to avoid as many separate tickets as possible. If it gets accepted at departure, it's less likely to cause issues throughout. If it's all on the same ticket, you can easily say "it was ok at x, y, and z airport, why is it not ok here" and definitely force the agent to look deeper before refusing you.
Still think that overall this might be AC afraid of DOT, and CBP interested because of the erratic itinerary (likely alerted by AC).
Oh, one thing I wanted to say, you probably want to avoid as many separate tickets as possible. If it gets accepted at departure, it's less likely to cause issues throughout. If it's all on the same ticket, you can easily say "it was ok at x, y, and z airport, why is it not ok here" and definitely force the agent to look deeper before refusing you.
Sep 18, 2017, 8:57 am
#50
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Halifax
Programs: AC SE100K, Marriott Lifetime Platinum Elite. NEXUS
Posts: 4,568
However, CBP was waiting for me at the entrance to the aircraft (end of the jet bridge) in BOS, and wanted my passport (though they accepted my NEXUS card, which is pretty unusual for immigration purposes in either direction once you're "targeted"), and then searched my bags.
No other passenger had that treatment. They were there for me.
My conclusion is that AC called them and said "this guy's up to no good".
No other passenger had that treatment. They were there for me.
My conclusion is that AC called them and said "this guy's up to no good".
Sep 18, 2017, 5:23 pm
#52
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: YYC
Programs: BA bronze, Aeroplan peon
Posts: 4,746
I've only been questioned twice on similarly odd itineraries, such as flying from London to Dublin for 1:15 and then going back to London. So far the explanation of "I'm doing a mileage run to maintain status in the frequent flyer program" has resulted in a laugh or "it's that time of year again" and off I go. Immigration people fairly quickly become familiar with the concept of mileage runs.
Sep 18, 2017, 8:14 pm
#53
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: YYZ
Programs: FOTSG Tangerine Ex E35k (AC)
Posts: 5,612
May I suggest not spoiling any beverages over your BPs this time?
I think the key here is that you will likely be fine, but I wouldn't like to personally try it without having concerige access to expedite things where needed. I'd also like to say that having a NA passport may help here.
As to what ACs website and IT systems will and won't allow or provide warnings on ... well there's a thread dedicated to that.
When are you planning this fun trip? If that's information you prefer not to provide on a public forum fair enough but please do report back.
Good luck
I think the key here is that you will likely be fine, but I wouldn't like to personally try it without having concerige access to expedite things where needed. I'd also like to say that having a NA passport may help here.
As to what ACs website and IT systems will and won't allow or provide warnings on ... well there's a thread dedicated to that.
When are you planning this fun trip? If that's information you prefer not to provide on a public forum fair enough but please do report back.
Good luck
Sep 18, 2017, 8:59 pm
#54
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Original Poster
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: SFO
Programs: AC SE MM, BA Gold, SQ Silver, Bonvoy Tit LTG, Hyatt Glob, HH Diamond
Posts: 44,324
May I suggest not spoiling any beverages over your BPs this time?
I think the key here is that you will likely be fine, but I wouldn't like to personally try it without having concerige access to expedite things where needed. I'd also like to say that having a NA passport may help here.
As to what ACs website and IT systems will and won't allow or provide warnings on ... well there's a thread dedicated to that.
When are you planning this fun trip? If that's information you prefer not to provide on a public forum fair enough but please do report back.
Good luck
I think the key here is that you will likely be fine, but I wouldn't like to personally try it without having concerige access to expedite things where needed. I'd also like to say that having a NA passport may help here.
As to what ACs website and IT systems will and won't allow or provide warnings on ... well there's a thread dedicated to that.
When are you planning this fun trip? If that's information you prefer not to provide on a public forum fair enough but please do report back.
Good luck
Usually for EYW I like to avoid US cities, but because of changes in my schedule this year I'm including them if they earn more wings.
Jun 19, 2018, 5:16 am
#56
Join Date: May 2001
Location: TPA 50%/BKK 30%/HKG 20%
Programs: UA 1K MM - AF G – TK G – AZ Ex – Hilton D – Marriott G – IHG P
Posts: 1,990
Okay my EYWv3 story may predate some of you. So here we go.
Massive IRROPS on our second last day resulted in a concierge escort from the inbound into YYZ to the domestic MLL, because we missed our flight.
There, she asked what we wanted, and I had an itinerary for her for the final day
YYZ-BOS-YHZ-YYZ-LAX
She confirmed this was acceptable as a "replacement", i.e. no change of funds in either direction. I agreed.
She got on the phone with res or a help desk or whatever, and came back to say it was booked.
We went to our hotel, then to Hooters.
The next day, we flew YYZ-BOS, no problem.
We went to the United Club, which required exiting and reclearing security. I spilled orange juice on my BOS-YHZ BP there.
So I had to get it reprinted.
The check-in agent (no, it was not possible to do this online) saw my "final destination" from BOS being LAX, and freaked out.
Several other agents were called over as she accused me of "sabotage".
They called the help desk, before a lead (at BOS, possibly station manager?) came over, saw there was 4 hours between landing in Canada (YHZ) and departing Canada (YYZ), and said it was fine, and let me go.
At this point, it became very clear that the system did not care. The agent cared.
However, CBP was waiting for me at the entrance to the aircraft (end of the jet bridge) in BOS, and wanted my passport (though they accepted my NEXUS card, which is pretty unusual for immigration purposes in either direction once you're "targeted"), and then searched my bags.
No other passenger had that treatment. They were there for me.
My conclusion is that AC called them and said "this guy's up to no good".
So forgive me if I'm a little more cautious this time.
As for "telling AC". I'm going to book my tickets through AC.com. All AC metal. If they don't already know what I'm doing, they're stupid.
Massive IRROPS on our second last day resulted in a concierge escort from the inbound into YYZ to the domestic MLL, because we missed our flight.
There, she asked what we wanted, and I had an itinerary for her for the final day
YYZ-BOS-YHZ-YYZ-LAX
She confirmed this was acceptable as a "replacement", i.e. no change of funds in either direction. I agreed.
She got on the phone with res or a help desk or whatever, and came back to say it was booked.
We went to our hotel, then to Hooters.
The next day, we flew YYZ-BOS, no problem.
We went to the United Club, which required exiting and reclearing security. I spilled orange juice on my BOS-YHZ BP there.
So I had to get it reprinted.
The check-in agent (no, it was not possible to do this online) saw my "final destination" from BOS being LAX, and freaked out.
Several other agents were called over as she accused me of "sabotage".
They called the help desk, before a lead (at BOS, possibly station manager?) came over, saw there was 4 hours between landing in Canada (YHZ) and departing Canada (YYZ), and said it was fine, and let me go.
At this point, it became very clear that the system did not care. The agent cared.
However, CBP was waiting for me at the entrance to the aircraft (end of the jet bridge) in BOS, and wanted my passport (though they accepted my NEXUS card, which is pretty unusual for immigration purposes in either direction once you're "targeted"), and then searched my bags.
No other passenger had that treatment. They were there for me.
My conclusion is that AC called them and said "this guy's up to no good".
So forgive me if I'm a little more cautious this time.
As for "telling AC". I'm going to book my tickets through AC.com. All AC metal. If they don't already know what I'm doing, they're stupid.
Oct 15, 2018, 12:26 pm
#57
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: YYZ & MCO
Programs: AC E75K, MR/SPG Plat Ambassador, UA G
Posts: 105
Cabotage on 2 separate PNRs?
I commute weekly to a midwestern US city a short hop from YYZ. Over the winter, I would like to go south (in US) to visit family.
I have a stupid amount of eups to burn (~60) and won't have an opportunity on my weekly commuter because there is no J. So, I would like to fly from US city to YYZ, YYZ to southern US via rouge and use eups to Premium Rouge. Obviously, this is cabotage and can't be booked on one ticket. Has anyone had success in ticketing such a trip on two separate PNRs? Would plan on doing it multiple times over the winter. What are the consequences if caught / connection broken?
Worst case I will fly UA or if someone has another strategy to burn eups that would be welcome too.
I have a stupid amount of eups to burn (~60) and won't have an opportunity on my weekly commuter because there is no J. So, I would like to fly from US city to YYZ, YYZ to southern US via rouge and use eups to Premium Rouge. Obviously, this is cabotage and can't be booked on one ticket. Has anyone had success in ticketing such a trip on two separate PNRs? Would plan on doing it multiple times over the winter. What are the consequences if caught / connection broken?
Worst case I will fly UA or if someone has another strategy to burn eups that would be welcome too.
Oct 15, 2018, 12:40 pm
#58
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Original Poster
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: SFO
Programs: AC SE MM, BA Gold, SQ Silver, Bonvoy Tit LTG, Hyatt Glob, HH Diamond
Posts: 44,324
I have done this numerous times.
Cabotage is an airline restriction. You can't commit cabotage - AC can. If they "catch you", worst case scenario they'd rebook you onto UA or make you wait 24 hours in YYZ. (I have first- and second-hand experience with both of those).
I'm a little surprised that this would be cheaper than just buying F on UA though.
Cabotage is an airline restriction. You can't commit cabotage - AC can. If they "catch you", worst case scenario they'd rebook you onto UA or make you wait 24 hours in YYZ. (I have first- and second-hand experience with both of those).
I'm a little surprised that this would be cheaper than just buying F on UA though.
Oct 15, 2018, 1:00 pm
#59
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: YYZ & MCO
Programs: AC E75K, MR/SPG Plat Ambassador, UA G
Posts: 105
I have done this numerous times.
Cabotage is an airline restriction. You can't commit cabotage - AC can. If they "catch you", worst case scenario they'd rebook you onto UA or make you wait 24 hours in YYZ. (I have first- and second-hand experience with both of those).
I'm a little surprised that this would be cheaper than just buying F on UA though.
Cabotage is an airline restriction. You can't commit cabotage - AC can. If they "catch you", worst case scenario they'd rebook you onto UA or make you wait 24 hours in YYZ. (I have first- and second-hand experience with both of those).
I'm a little surprised that this would be cheaper than just buying F on UA though.
Oct 15, 2018, 1:08 pm
#60
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Halifax
Programs: AC SE100K, Marriott Lifetime Platinum Elite. NEXUS
Posts: 4,568
The situation is that you wish to fly USA-YYZ-USB? And $JOB will pay for USA-YYZ; you want to pay out of pocket YYZ-USB and then eUp to get some sun and free $13/btl wine on the way?
$JOB may be willing to pay for USA-USB direct, which likely is cheaper then a TB flight. And then you can pay for an upgrade on UA directly, which may be less than the YYZ-USB hop.
I'd at least ask around for the travel rules (I'm in theory allowed to fly to 3rd party locations if its <~ the same $ as home, which anywhere else in NA is), and crunch the numbers for yourself.
$JOB may be willing to pay for USA-USB direct, which likely is cheaper then a TB flight. And then you can pay for an upgrade on UA directly, which may be less than the YYZ-USB hop.
I'd at least ask around for the travel rules (I'm in theory allowed to fly to 3rd party locations if its <~ the same $ as home, which anywhere else in NA is), and crunch the numbers for yourself.